posted May 27, 2006 10:47 PM         

He left a note in the car that said he had tried to write this note 13 times and didn't know what to say except that he was sorry. Then he said he didn't want to be a burden on anyone.

He wasn't sick. He has been under a doctor's care for a torn rotor cuff ( or something like that) in his arm and he needed surgery for that. That is all as far as his wife or anyone knows. His present wife said she didn't see this coming. They were not having marital problems and he didn't seem depressed or anything. At least that she noticed because I have read that everyone who commits suicide thinks about it for a long time and they always give signs that indicate it before following through on it. Many of them even talk about it.

He seemed to have every reason to live. He had retired from Ford Motor Company on a pension and went to work as a consultant for the local energy company. He made good money so he was not in debt. He has been married for quite some time to his present and fourth wife. She is 10 years younger than him and the last time I saw them at my nephew's wedding they seemed happy together. Of course you never know for sure if people are really happy by how they behave around others or even by what they tell you.

My sister is angry at him for doing this. She said it was typical of him to think of no one but hisself and not think of what this would do to his kids, grand kids and his wife. My sister is a friend with his present wife, she likes her very much and she said that his wife didn't deserve that.

I was very close to my ex-brother in law. We used to sit and talk for hours at his dining room table over coffee. My husband, my sister, my brother and his wife used to hang out together and go listen to live bands and dance every week-end. We did everything together. We even took vacations together. We sort of drifted apart after he and my sister divorced and he subsequently remarried three more times after that.

This hit me really hard. Mainly because it has hurt my neice and nephew so much. But also it has come as quite a shock. I never thought he would be the type of person to do this.

I have always thought that suicide is the coward's way out because life is tough for everyone and it does take a lot of strength and courage to overcome things and go on. The things we think are overwhelming now pass and give way to something even better. Life tends to run in cycles of ups and downs. We can learn a lot from the downs if we are open to the lesson.

I have also always felt that it takes a lot of self hatred to take your own life, especially by putting a gun to your head and blowing your brains out. One of my oldest son's best friends from school did the same thing to himself. He rented a cabin up north and put a shotgun in his mouth.

There has to be a sense of hopelessness to suicide too. Because I have been through some real rough times in my life and I know others who have had even rougher times than I did in life. I, and most others may think of suicide at those times but there is always hope that things will work out. That is the case with me anyway and it must be the case with others who I have known who had horrible lives but did not kill themselves.

My ex-brother in law was an alcoholic all of his life. Maybe that is what drove him to do this. He and my sister ended up divorced because he ran around with other women. Maybe he was told he had terminal cancer and just didn't let any of his family know about it. His dad, his mom and a younger sister died of cancer. Maybe that is what he meant by being a burden on others. But, even with the suffering of cancer facing him committing suicide denied his wife and kids his life insurance money.

My neice's little girl has it rougher than any of the family. Last year her other grandfather committed suicide. She has to deal with that in her life

I am not judging him or anyone who commits suicide. I know that if there are things you have from your childhood that have effected your behavior patterns all your life and interfered with your relationships the older you get the more that stuff that you denied and did not address keeps crowding in on you. Maybe that is what happened in his case.

I still don't understand how anyone could take their own life. Especially in such a violent way.

What are your thoughts? Have any of you ever had suicidal thoughts and what made you go on in spite of that feeling? What do you think prompts someone to take their own life?

posted May 27, 2006 11:43 PM         

------------------
"I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest."
John Keats

posted May 27, 2006 11:50 PM         

I often wonder the same thing...how can one do that to them self. Ive never contemplated suicide, not even for a second. It's too frightening, even though I have a negatively aspected Pisces Moon (opposite Saturn and square Neptune)...so you would think that's possible. Im sure that aspect could incline one to that type of action but it does depend on the will of the individual.

For some it could be the spur of the moment type thing, like maybe a sudden brain chemical imbalance that threw him off? But Im sure for most it's not like that. Negative mentality and feelings build over time and become constant internal dialogue...Overwhelming feelings of hopelessness, self hatred, and a feeling of no way out. How can anyone feel like such a great burden to others that they feel that taking their life away will solve things or take away the pain?

Some people are very good at hiding any signs of depression or feelings of suicide. In fact they may exhibit a personality that is quite opposite to that of someone you would believe is sad and depressed. It's like the Jekyle and Hyde syndrome.

But still how can one leave in such a violent way? How can one loathe them self that much?

posted May 28, 2006 12:51 AM         

My deepest sympathies to you and your family.....

I daresay that many suididal folks are not thinking about insurance for their families or how it will affect offspring, etc. Their minds are on their own suffering. I agree with Ohad in that I don't think suicide is cowardly -- I think it's the only option the sufferer sees. In a way I guess you could say that it's a selfish act, but just how altruistic any of us are requires a real judgment call.

My ex used to threaten suicide, and once even tried slitting his wrists, but I don't think he really wanted to leave this plane quite yet. And he refused to seek "help" of any sort. Isn't it a statistic that more men commit suicide than women?? I think our culture has a role in that -- what is expected from men..... and that they are supposed to bear these enormous burdens without showing any feelings..... thank the gods that is changing.....

I wish you all the strength to get thru the next few weeks of grief.

posted May 28, 2006 12:54 AM         

The decision to commit suicide is a personal one.
The reasons are many and varied.

There is so much stigma around this act. The person is often blamed, reviled, insulted, and resented for it. Because it is a movement in the opposite direction of Life, it threatens and challenges our values at their foundations. We, who are committed to Life, and to all the sufferings and temptations of this world, are desperate to preserve the will to live, and guard it jealously against any threat of attack. We would hate to think that anything could be so bad as to make us unable, or (even worse) unwilling, to answer the question of life in the affirmative. And nothing unnerves us more, and makes us more indignant, than when a single, audacious individual, taking destiny into their own hands (and commending it, in blind faith, to a judgement which "God", or Fate, has prepared), does an about-face, and, as if attempting to turn the tides of the most ancient tradition known to man, rebelling against the very cause of "materialization", steps suddenly and unexpectedly into the unknown world of spirit.

I believe we are not in a position to judge, especially, those of us without challenging aspects from the trans-Saturnian planets to our luminaries (sun, moon) and/or personal points (asc, mc). What we understand as "free will" only has validity in the realms up to and including Saturn. The nature and domain of the outer planets is far beyond anything we have conscious power or authority over. They subvert our precious (venus), fears and time-honored institutions (saturn). By no means are they influenced by our philosophies (jupiter), our subconscious desires (moon), our petty ego drives (mars), our faculty for conscious discrimination (mercury), or even our drive for innocent self-expression (sun). On the contrary, their only purpose is to destroy, to tear-through, transcend, and discard the aspects of ourselves which we call personal, even social. Uranus wants to know it all, Neptune wants to feel it all, and Pluto just wants it all RIGHT NOW! Naturally, they terrify us.

So, who are we to judge other mortals, for their weakness or impotence in the face of these realities? Do we really think there is a common standard for all of us? But, how can there be, when we are all made differently? Can we really pressume to know how we would react, in another man's shoes... in his skin,... in his heart? By the time we arrived at a sincere approximation of his experience, what would be left of ourselves?

Personally, I dont see what all the fuss is about. Why must there be so much shame and controversy surrounding this act? I think it would be much healthier to consider it a valid option. Only then can we be free to choose life.

"There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. Deciding whether or not life is worth living is to answer the fundamental question in philosophy. All other questions follow from that."
- Camus

Why should we feel compelled to remain where we no longer wish to be? If our inner longing impells us to move, what good can come of blocking its flow? What bitter seeds can we sow, what stagnant crops can we tend and reap, while our spirits are sick with longing for another world, and all our subsequent actions here must needs be hollow, fake, and devoid of honest intent?

It is all fine and good to point fingers, after the fact, or to study, debate, deny, and deride the question at arms length, while the voices of its proponents are all extinguished. But, when something might have been done... Ah, but it terrifies us to think that, if the fault rests not entirely in the grave, we, too, might have a share in it, still. We perish the notion, insist that the man or woman gave no sign... No sign? How open were we to this person? How closely did we listen to this spirit, when it dwelt among us, that we should claim the right to judge and censure it now?

People dont learn to keep dark secrets overnight. They learn over a lifetime of having others turn a deaf or cold ear to their confessions and fears. I dont say this now with the intention of assigning blame to the survivors, but, to suggest that we are more interdependent that we realize.

Crosses come to rest, from time to time, on the shoulders of individuals, but, these are merely splinters of the one cross, which ultimately belongs to all of us (for WE are the body of Christ). They are passed, sometimes forced, from one person to another, but, every single person who collapses under the weight of a cross, takes the fall for all of us. Every child rapist, every bag-lady, schizophrenic with loneliness, and every suicide, is a scapegoat. We laugh, we snarl, we point and make up names to call them. But they are no different than us. A little weaker perhaps, or bent under the weight of a greater burden, so that their form and shadow appear funny or crooked to our point of view. Or, perhaps they just dance to the beat of a very different drummer indeed. To write it off as insanity (or chemical imbalance) is, I think, a little pretentious, and terribly convenient.

As for suicide being "selfish",
an analogy might suffice
to convey my perspective on this:

Traffic piles up on the freeway,
but the "breakdown lane" remains empty;
neglected, taboo!
The devotee of freedom,
always an individual,
takes the road less travelled,
and surpasses everyone in this way.

He is not selfish who refuses to sacrifice
his will to absurd conventions.
He is not blind who follows his own lights.

It is said that the urge to die is an expression of a repressed urge to transform. Somehow, the urge is blocked, the person feels increasingly ambivalent about introducing change, or unable to do so (or to imagine doing so), and the pressure builds, until, one day, when little or no change has been effected, and patience is at an end, there appears no option but to discard the body.

The outer planets are transformative.
Without Uranus, one would not consider it.
Without Neptune, one would not dream of it.
Without Pluto, one would not will it.

From a phoenix-eye-view, all that happens takes place according to an elaborate and necessary balancing, co-ordinating, and harmonizing of principle energies. We gain power over circumstances by becoming aware, and we become aware only by the Grace of God; by the revelation of the Light of God. All things occur in their appointed times and places, and nothing occurs which was not prepared from the beginning of the world. Weeping and gnashing of teeth avail nothing. Only calm acceptance of the will of God, exactly as it is manifested (and not merely as we would like to have seen it go down), will bring us to a position of understanding and mastery. But, so long as we regard the wills of human beings (which are only torn ribbons, threaded and sputtering in the currents of a much larger stream), deliberating upon the honor or dishonor due to them, we shall never perceive their true natures. The part has meaning and purpose only in relation to the whole. Since the whole is infinite, and lies eternally beyond the furthest reaches of our comprehension, the ultimate meaning and purpose of our lives (and deaths) must remain mysterious to us.

hsc

posted May 28, 2006 01:52 AM         

HSC you make many intersting points. You also said,

quote:

---

Personally, I dont see what all the fuss is about. Why must there be so much shame and controversy surrounding this act? I think it would be much healthier to consider it a valid option. Only then can we be free to choose life.

---

posted May 28, 2006 02:01 AM         

That is my point.

What can we site to support our demonization of suicide,
other than the common wisdom (which was never that wise)
of our own civilizations (which were never that civil)?

If we sloughed off this cultural programing,
we would be free to choose life (or death).

posted May 28, 2006 02:08 AM         

I agree some cultural programming can be limiting or appear that way to others outside or free of that culture. But some may still chose to live within (the confines, to others) that culture because they feel it is more benefical to their state of mind, and hence life.

posted May 28, 2006 02:23 AM         

"But some may still chose to live within (the confines.."

Unless they have been outside the box, -
outside of the culture, -
they cannot make an educated choice.

But, it would seem that, once they are outside the box,
there is no going back,
for "inside" entails ignorance of what is outside.

The person could, as you suggest, make a choice
to honor the beliefs of their culture,
and "accept" them ostensibly,
but, once they have seen that there is
no more validation for their own culture's beliefs
than there is for the beliefs of other cultures,
how can they ever really know -
or feel secure in their "knowledge"?

"How do we really know?"

posted May 28, 2006 02:38 AM         

quote:

---

Unless they have been outside the box, -
outside of the culture, -
they cannot make an educated choice.

---

Agree!

quote:

---

But, it would seem that, once they are outside the box,
there is no going back,
for "inside" entails ignorance of what is outside.

---

Yes it does "seem" like that. We are free to go back, inside the box, if we feel that it works best for us. Inside doesn't necessarily equate with ignorance...as long as they have windows and a door in order to leave or view or experience the the outside with on occasion, or more frequently Everyone has a preference. Some may choose to remain inside permanently, and even refuse to open their blinds, and some on the opposite extreme may have many boxes in different lands.

posted May 28, 2006 03:06 AM         

I don't know.

Good question.

We should ask a hermit,
or, perhaps, a messiah.

"Is it humanely possible to live outside of culture?"

Is it possible to know the truth,
and remain in human form?

Imagine that the character of Jesus Christ
attempted just such a transcendence.
Imagine that the resistance he encountered
from the society of his time,
was a direct reflection of the resistance he harbored
in the depths of his (collective) unconscious.
Imagine that, resisting his own conditioning from within,
he could not but find himself tested
to resist the wills of those from without,
who would conspire to keep him to the laws of his culture.
Now, imagine that, entirely established in his faith in himself,
and reconciled to his unconscious doubts,
the curses of his contemporaries
fall like music on his ears.
Just as, established in his faith in God,
their spears can only tickle,
their whips can but carress.
His flesh has become light.

It's late, I'm babbling...
lol.

'night,
hsc

posted May 28, 2006 03:25 AM         

quote:

---

Is it possible to know the truth,
and remain in human form?

---

Good point, or is that a question!?

You're also right, that it's late

posted May 28, 2006 03:52 AM         

There are many reasons...

Many often forget PHYSICAL PAIN.

posted May 28, 2006 05:11 AM         

Cowardly?.....no I dont think so at all..!

I have felt suicidal many times....

It is for some, wanting to connect with the divine....to go home....to be at that place of bliss....away from all the pain and suffering.....earth life is tooooo tough for some of us sensitive ones!!

Ive the hughest compassion for people that decide to move on to a better place....albeit that they leave sadness behind, I still understand.

And its not until we gain a heightened sense of spirituality that we can have some understanding around this.

These people and their families need compassion, to be able to put yourself in the shoes of the one that decided to leave.

My father admitted to me a couple of years ago that he has been suicidal. I was honoured that he was BRAVE enough to speak of this. He is one of the most sensitive, kind, caring and beautiful people you could ever wish to meet. Although I would have been devestated if he had gone thro with his choice to depart....I would have had compassion and understanding around this..

Understanding, understanding, understanding....

posted May 28, 2006 05:18 AM         

It isnt (always) to do with hatred....

To my mind its to do with desparation, isolation, sensitivity, hopelesness,

and other factors of course.....

What chance do our young people have if suicide is still classed as a stigma.....

I had a young friend who threatened suicide many times....if he had done it, I would have only felt compassion for him.

Didnt the Catholic Church view it very dimly, brainwashing its followers into believing that God wouldnt accept those who chose this path, into heaven...

What a cruel God that would be....

Thank that same God for enlightenment....

posted May 28, 2006 08:04 AM         

My thoughts and prayers to you and yours.

My late husband did the same thing almost 5 years ago, we were going through a divorce and he could just not deal. He left at the time wonderful parents, 2 daughters 9 and 13 (now 18 and 14) and an extended network of friends and famlily that were left asking "why?"

Some, most, have seen the act as "selfish", he did the deed on his grandma's birthday, at his parents house, with a b-day party planned the next day.

I see the act as his personal choice. I personally would never contemplate taking another life, much less my own, but he saw it different, I suppose, yes free will is a huge factor in suicide. I can not even imagine to what depts of despair one would be feeling to take such a gift as we know as life. He was obviously depressed, looking back, was a horrible alcoholic and was medicating himself with the drink, none of us saw it this way until way too late.

Not only is there stigma attached to the ones who make this choice, there is huge stigma attached to us, the survivors of suicide. I get many different reactions from people when they find out why I am a widow at 44 and have chosen not to tell a few people that I have encountered, but usually I tell the truth, afterall, I had nothing to do with it was his choice. I often get the feel from people as if "how could such a thing happen? Why did you let such a thing happen?"

No one really understands until one is there, and God bless all of those who are there, both the victims and the survivors.

I often think about him as he was drunk when he did it. How awful, it must have been or will be, who knows the time conception on the "other side", for one to be under the influence of alcohol, kill oneself and wake up in spirit and..........

I think the verse on his grave marker says is all

"Earth hath no sorrow that Heaven cannot heal....."

HCS

You made alot of very intelligent and feeling points, too many to note here, you made alot of sense, thank you for your support from the victims and survivors!

posted May 28, 2006 11:38 AM         

My heart-felt sympathy to you and your loved ones. Death is never easy...whether intentional or not.

My step-father drank himself to death at the age of 43. Although alcohol abuse takes a lot longer kill it is still "suicide on an instillation plan". He left behind 4 children, three step-children, a step-granddaughter, and my mother...who still mourns for her lost soul mate ten years later.

I don't feel that suicide is something one "commits" as if "commiting a mortal sin". But rather it is something that happens when one loses all hope and can no longer feel any joy in one's life.

I have dealt with severe depression and I can't answer why (at certain times) it is so hard to enjoy even the simplest things in life, I suppose for each person the reason is different. For some it may be self hatred, but that has never been the reason for me. I have never hated myself, but perhaps just hated where life has taken me and not been able to see any way out. A hopelessness that is a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation. There have been times when I was in a hole so deep and black that I literally could not get out of bed for weeks and if I would have had the stregnth to reach for a razor, I would have used it.

Sometimes I think that people are just so tired. We work constantly (with jobs, continuing education, family, volunteering, even vacations can feel like work!), so sometimes when "one more thing" adds on, it can be that one thing that is too much and we calapse. Some people will find a way to get back up again, and some won't. But I don't feel that it is anyone's "fault". Can we blame the the person who get's off a treadmill and dies from heart failure because she/he wasn't strong enough to get back up and fight for life? For me, suicide is the same...heart failure.

Some may even feel that suicide is from one not being able to find/feel a Divine presence in their life, but from my experience this is not true. I can honestly say that I have never felt "abondoned" by God. In fact, when I am feeling depressed I always feel God with me...holding me...crying with me...loving me in all of my brokenness. Please understand that this is just my experience, but there are many who do feel abandoned by God.

I don't know if any of this will help bring you comfort during this difficult time, but all we can do is share with each other and offer prayer's of Love & Light.

posted May 28, 2006 02:35 PM         

That is exactly what we need to remember....empathy....

Of course if one has never been suicidal, then it would be hard to understand why another would do this..So thanks be to God for the ones who have felt this way!!

It takes a lot of courage to take yer own life.....as it does to carry on under severe pressure...

The word cowardly shocked me a little and saddened me....

I am not a coward, and that could have been me.....or you...

There for the grace of God go I.......

posted May 28, 2006 03:02 PM         

Suicide is a very emotive subject.

My mother, when I was nine, tried to commit suicide. Driven to the brink of despair after a violent marriage, with four of us kids, alone and living in horrendous accomodation, she tried.
One day she dropped us all off at school/nursery and went to a deserted old barn with vodka and pills...it wasn't a cry for help, she wanted to do it. She took them all...and would have died...but a tramp found her and called for help. She survived.
She only told me this when I was sixteen. I feel very emtional that we could have been orphaned (my father had deserted us.) I was angry when she told me this that she would abandon us, I was sad for her despair, I was sickened that my father caused this....so many emotions.
But I don't think she was a coward. She wans't in her 'right mind' as she'd been pushed to the very edge of sanity. She was hospitalised for a year after that and had all sorts of treatment for depression. We kids were all split up - it was hard.
I feel great empathy for anyone driven to such an extreme.
I wish I could find that tramp who found her but we never knew who it was. Probably an angel.

posted May 28, 2006 03:33 PM         

Seems like there are many regrets over the Catholic church and their influence on others. Many other belief systems hold similar views. The Ancient Greeks for instance, hundreds of years before Christ, also thought it was cowardly and would not perform the same death rites as others who died a natural death...people were a property of the gods. So this was well before the time of the Church.

posted May 28, 2006 03:46 PM         

I really do not want to say more here publicaly.
Yes...that sense of stigma and judgement by others prevents me from saying more.

That choice is extremely complex and very seldom what it appears to be to others.

posted May 28, 2006 04:51 PM         

Where I used to live, there were several young men who took their lives.....when I asked one young man why he thought this happened so often he said:

"theyve no one to talk to....nowhere to go,,,,and the f****** Catholic Church screws them up"

He was the young guy I speak of who threatened it a couple of times, but luckily my hubbie and I helped him thro".

He had somewhere to go, a place of comfort.....