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Johnny
Knowflake

Posts: 2056
From: Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 03, 2007 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Fantastic research and very readable.

Thanks so much, Pix. Heh, I get so nervous when I see this thread has replies. Confrontation isn't my strong suit, lol.

Thanks for your support. I'm sort of getting teary, lol. Ack.

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pixelpixie
Knowflake

Posts: 5301
From: Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 2005

posted March 04, 2007 12:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pixelpixie     Edit/Delete Message
As usual, you are very warm and pure.. and so intelligent!
I am in awe of the way you speak about it.

Thank you for continuously 'fighting the good fight'.
I know if I owned a penis, I'd feel the same way I feel not 'owning' one.

Luckily, my mother and father aren't circumcizing type of people..my brother's was his own to decide upon..... so I would've been intact, if I'd been born a boy.....and it's funny, that I didn't know that until I had a son, made that decision not to, and then heard their opinions.

Don't be discouraged, you're so awesome.

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Johnny
Knowflake

Posts: 2056
From: Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 04, 2007 12:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
Ack, you're way too nice...

Don't know what to say to that. Thanks.

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eatbooks
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From:
Registered: Dec 2006

posted March 04, 2007 12:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for eatbooks     Edit/Delete Message
Well I just dont believe any propaganda that is thrown at me and thats the truth, Its my personal opinion, and im sticking to it, cant help the way I feel. I doubt the bill will pass.

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pixelpixie
Knowflake

Posts: 5301
From: Ontario Canada
Registered: Jun 2005

posted March 04, 2007 12:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for pixelpixie     Edit/Delete Message
I wouldn't believe in blind propaganda either, so I applaud that..

I think the point is though, blind propaganda brought the original 'benefits' of circumcision to popularity in this culture ( in the Victorian times, imagine!) and now, as we are more educated, we are trying to undo the years of blind adherence.

It's research and facts. It's also common sense.

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Johnny
Knowflake

Posts: 2056
From: Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 04, 2007 01:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
Well I just dont believe any propaganda that is thrown at me and thats the truth,

Oh, on the contrary. You've bought into the propaganda put out by those who are profiting from this. You're just too ignorant to know it. And you will remain that way until you give up your self-congratulatory, self-righteous attitude.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)


"Credulity kills."
- Carl Sagan

quote:
its my personal opinion, and im sticking to it

Lol. Your opinion that removing the skin of the penis is good hygiene? Your opinion that removing tens of thousands of specialized nerve receptors doesn't affect sensitivity?

My opinion is that you are an idiot.

Does that make it true?

quote:
I doubt the bill will pass.

Oh, it will pass. Because the only people who oppose it are morons and child-molesters.

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world: indeed it's the only thing that ever has" - Margaret Mead

"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

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eatbooks
Knowflake

Posts: 619
From:
Registered: Dec 2006

posted March 04, 2007 02:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for eatbooks     Edit/Delete Message
wow yeah im gonna side with you, calling someone names doesnt help your "CAUSE". I respect your passion and views, and I'd appreciate the same.

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Johnny
Knowflake

Posts: 2056
From: Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 04, 2007 02:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
wow yeah im gonna side with you, calling someone names doesnt help your "CAUSE".

How old are you?

Names? Helloooo? We are talking about the genital mutilation of children here!

And you're going to base your position on whether or not I called you a name???

quote:
I respect your passion and views, and I'd appreciate the same.

I would like to respect you; truly I would. But I find it impossible when, instead of weighing the information I and others have presented and making an informed decision, you simply decide to "stick to your opinions" because you "can't change the way you feel."

That's simply ridiculous, and, if I ridicule you, it's because I'm trying to wake you up!

Keep in mind who you're talking to, here. I have something of an emotional stake in this issue, considering the fact that I have to, you know, look at the scarred ruin of what was my penis every day. I've dealt with feelings of helplessness and rage over it since I was a teenager. I've seriously considered suicide many, many times because of it. And I'm one of many. So, when someone tells me that they have "stern feelings" that it is "wrong" not to cut their babies penis up, I get angry.

It seems to me like me calling you an idiot is a little inconsequential in comparison to that.

This isn't about you and me. It is about what is true and what is not. Like I stated earlier, there is no such thing as an opinion when you are dealing with objective facts. So, unless you want to be responsible for mutilating a child out of willful ignorance, put opinion aside. Then I will respect you.

That's all.

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goatgirl
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Posts: 954
From: Anywhere
Registered: Jul 2002

posted March 04, 2007 02:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for goatgirl     Edit/Delete Message
Johnny,

Bless you dear man!

When we found out we were having 2 boys, I got out one of my books from Mothering Magazine, and it told the whole proceedure. About how they strap the day old infant spread eagle into a chair and proceed to jab a metal file up the tip of the penis in order to loosen up the foreskin, and then cut off the tip all without any pain medication. After reading this to my husband, he was silent, and we both looked at each other solemnly. He said "We will NEVER do that to our sons." They've never had a single problem health wise. I expect that is due to the fact that we've taught proper hygiene to them, just like we taught proper hygiene to our daughter.

I had an aquaintence who was pregnant the same time I was, she had a boy, and when she'd come over to have our mommy time together, she'd occasionally have to change his diaper. When she would remove it, he writhed in pain from the air hitting it and the friction of diaper, baby wipes, etc. on his unhealed wound. It pained me just looking at him, and I couldn't imagine what it must have felt like for him to have that happen at such a young and tender age. Birth is hard enough on a baby's system, without adding the stress of circumcision on top of that. The biggest factor for us was that we would never consider circumcision on our daughter, how could we do it to our sons?

eatbooks,
Please read up on this from a multiple of per spectives before having it done.
Love,
GG

------------------
After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

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eatbooks
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Posts: 619
From:
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posted March 04, 2007 02:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for eatbooks     Edit/Delete Message
Obviously this is a very emotional issue for you, I dont know what youve gone thru exactly, I hope you find healing in this area of your life. I feel this way mainly coz I grew up in a religious household, but the health issue is the main issue to me. I do feel its cleaner, and easier to get it done at that age. Anyways, Im sorry for what youve gone thru.

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Johnny
Knowflake

Posts: 2056
From: Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 04, 2007 03:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks for the kind words, Eatbooks.

quote:
I do feel its cleaner, and easier to get it done at that age.

Which is why I'm trying to tell you: it's not cleaner. There is no hygiene risk from being intact. Girls have so many more folds and crevices, but we don't remove any pieces from them, do we?

Urinary tract infections and other bacterial problems are dozens of times more common in girls than intact boys - we treat this with medicine, not razor-blades.

More than 85% of the world's men are intact - uncircumcised. They do not have problems, they are just fine.

Did you see what I posted about amputated foreskins being sold for $4,000 a pound? Does this not seem suspicious to you? I'm not citing propaganda, neither I or anyone else opposed to circumcision have anything to gain from it. I find the issue immensly emotionally challenging to even talk about. I just want to get the truth out. No one pays me.

You say you grew up in a religious household - so did I. My parents were very into Judaism. If you're Jewish, I have a ton of information from Rabbis and others about this issue. Let me know.

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Johnny
Knowflake

Posts: 2056
From: Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 04, 2007 03:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
Hey, GoatGirl! Haven't seen you in a while!

Thanks for the story. Yeah, Mothering Magazine is awesome.

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Johnny
Knowflake

Posts: 2056
From: Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 04, 2007 03:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
One Rabbis' Thoughts on Circumcision February, 2007

By Rabbi Natan Segal
(www.natan.net)

Greetings and Blessings in your Birthing, Blessed Baby Boy! May your
life be full of love, wonder and joy! You are perfect as you are, a
bright and shining Radiant Star. Welcome to this world Holy Child -
we love you - may you grow in strength, gentleness, compassion, and
PEACE. Boys and girls, your creator has made you as you are meant to
be. May you be Happy, Healthy, Holy, and Free - to live.. to love..
to receive and give the love of your Creator in loving one another,
in blessing the life you live.

The birth of a child is indeed a wonder-full event. Full of the magic
and mystery of all creation.

We have some idea on how it happens, but our knowledge is vastly
limited. The mystery and magnificence of the event brings us to the
space of 'Awe".

Our tradition teaches us: "The beginning of wisdom is Awe of the heavens".

Each child brings a new vision, a new light a new awareness into our world.

In the baby naming ceremony, the infant is placed on an empty chair.
the chair is called the chair of Elijah, or the chair of the Messiah,
it is a recognition that each child brings a spirit of redemption
and a new light into our world.

As a Rabbi (rabbi means teacher), and a naturopathic physician, I am
continually looking at the natural world and beholding in wonder and
awe the glory of all creation.

All is with a purpose, all spaces have their time.. life is
meditation..the all is one..Divine..

There is a natural progression to our sexual development.

We are sexual beings in utero. Erections are common from five months
in the womb to just before the tomb! And vaginal fluids and tissue
swelling and stages of excitement are continually in flux.

We are sexual beings throughout our lifetime, a continual fountain of
pleasure, awareness, communion, healing and mystery.

Rumi (1207-1273)..the 13 century Persian poet said: "They try to say,
what we are, spiritual or sexual. They talk about Solomon and all
his wives. In the body of the world, they say there is a soul and
you are that. But we have ways within each other that will never be
said by anyone."(translation: Coleman Barks)

As i view sexuality from a nature perspective: We are given the first
decade of our lives to explore and play, learn and enjoy,(self-
centered sexuality). Then pro-creation gets added to this mystery and
hence, more responsibility,consciousness,awareness of another, and
nurturing.

If we miss out on early childhood sexual development, our sexual
maturity is stunted.

And we become immature sexual beings in adult bodies..This is quite
obvious from viewing our own culture and the world at large.

It is normal and natural for a two year old boy to run around pulling
himself by his penis..stretching his foreskin and making people
around him smile..like he has himself on a leash!

A two year old girl will likewise rub her clitoris..and get some
pleasure..and then move on to other things, and then return to
rubbing..

We are born with the capacity for orgasm..but young children are
rarely motivated to stimulate themselves to climax..but they do enjoy
foreplay! (a major lesson for all of us!)

They are great teachers of 'outercourse', sensual play without a
specific goal. Just being in the 'here and now'...and being in joy
pleasure and delight.

And there are cultures, such as in the Philippines that will
masturbate their crying infants..bring them to orgasm..and they go to
sleep..

In Bali the infant is not put down for the first 9 months.( But, they
live in extended families, with uncles and aunts and cousins and
siblings and friends all over the place with grandparents and
assorted elders who have the patience and delight to sit and hold
these holy new beings of God's light.) He/she is held with a cloth
under their bottom, people come to greet them and 'gently' touch his/
her genitalia..which produces a smile..on both the infant and the one
who touches!

In our current American culture any notion of childhood sexuality is
labeled as 'abuse'.

We will sooner our children watch violence on tv, play with toy guns
and soldiers..we will spank them, verbally abuse them, keep them
bound in diapers and clothes, so they cannot have access to touch or
pleasure themselves.

When a child reaches down to touch himself..the parent usually gives
a 'NO message', and places a toy or a thing in the child's hands. the
message is..NO!, do not look for pleasure in your ownself..pleasure
is 'outside' yourself...and if you get the right 'things' you will
be happy..

Hence, our obsession with material consumption and continually
looking outside of ourselves for the right 'toy' to bring our
happiness and peace.

In the Trobriand islands children are having sexual intercourse at
the age of 5! (Of course they don't have movies or malls,video-games
or t.v)

Is this perverted? Well, what do you want them to do?..sit in school
houses..read books..play video games..and take medication for
attention deficit disorder?

Is it possible that the real deficit is what we are asking our
children to pay attention to?

Loving and delight is the greatest dance there is..and the more we
are away from this dance the greater our frustration loneliness and
despair.

The early Egyptians gifted us with circumcision. The patriarch
Abraham was 99 years old when he made the covenant (hebrew: Brit')
with Yahweh. He circumcised himself. And we know that it was a small
symbolic cut..the removal of the tip of the foreskin that hung over
the glans.

In the second century , the Jews at this time were wanting to
participate in the Greek and Roman olympics..they competed in the
nude. The Greeks and Romans only allowed 'intact' males..as they
celebrated the human form in its wholeness and completeness.

So, if a Jewish man wanted to compete..he would hang some weights
from his existing foreskin and 'restore' himself. The Rabbis of this
era did not take kindly to this practice of physical assimilation so
they instituted two new rituals into the circumcision procedure.

1.Periah..the complete removal of the foreskin, exposing the glans,
and in some cases, the removal of the frenulum (the extra-sensitive
band of tissue on the underside of the penis.)

2.Metzitzah..the sucking of the blood from the cut penis

These two procedures are still performed among Orthodox Jews world wide.

So, from a simple snip at the time of Abraham, we now have a major
blood-letting ceremony, complete with blood sucking.

This has got to stop..it is endangering the sexual integrity and
health of our men and women and it has major potential for dividing
the Jewish people.

Deuteronomy 10:16 says: "Circumcise the foreskin of your heart,"

In Hebrew, the word foreskin is 'orlah'.. there is an 'orlah'
covering the ear..and the heart..

What is preventing us from 'hearing the word of God and opening our
hearts in love and compassion.. This is the real circumcision that
needs to occur. and it is a life-time learning ceremony.

According to most Jewish teachings there are 613 commandments in the
Torah (Bible-Old Testament). 248 positive commandments (Mitzvot
Aseh), and 365 negative commandments(Mitzvot Taaseh). Although not
all rabbis are in agreement about this..actually, not all rabbis are
in agreement about anything...there is no 'Jewish universal field
theory.'(Humanistic Judaism does not even believe in God.) And the
same is true for all the religions..not all Christians, Muslims,
Buddhists, believe the same way.(more often than not they will fight
and war with each other re: belief..sad but true)..

So, i find it fascinating (and disturbing) that young bright couples,
who practice very little of the 613 commandments..will have major
surgery performed on their baby boys in the name of a tradition that
they know little about and are not even practicing..

Well, how Orthodox do you want to be...is it the more foreskin that
is removed...the more Jewish your child will be?

Will you include the blood sucking ceremony?

Circumcision is not a guarantee of Jewishness.

It was introduced into our American culture by Dr. John Kellogg (yes,
the Kellog cereal man) ..(he also favored female circumcision)

He said that it was a cure for masturbation!..(it's not)..and
likewise it is not a procedure that guarantees holiness, compassion
or wisdom in our sex.

Infancy is a most sacred and special time. At no time in life is
physical tissue more sensitive and responsive to touch,taste, sound,
temperature etc.

Infancy is also the period of greatest transparency. An infant does
not fake pleasure or pretend pain.

It is true to its feelings a hundred percent of the time. Our sacred
tasks as caretakers of this sensual-spirit being is to help it
maintain its comfort and presence, delight and peace. He/she will
inform us immediately if we are not doing something right.

I have witnessed hundreds of circumcisions, the baby boy usually lies
in bliss and blessing and as soon as his penis is touched it gets
erect...and then he is held down..either with a restraining unit or
by an elder, and then he is cut...and he screams, and cries..

How is this event stored in memory? What are we doing to our
children?...and why?

Young Moslem men get circumcised between the ages of 12 and 15..can
this be cited as a partial explanation for their anger?

I don't know..You don't know..We don't know..and that's the truth of
it..Forgive us dear Lord ..for we know not what we do

We have so much pathology (sickness/disease) around our sexuality
that it makes no sense to cut off parts of our anatomy because some
second century rabbis thought it was a good idea.(these are the same
rabbis that said we can pray for a baby boy up until the third month
of pregnancy.)(The Talmud is a vast sea of discussion, learning and
response..full of good information and misinformation..in my humble
opinion i find a lot of their health information sorely lacking.)

Boys are born with foreskins and girls with hymens (the sheath-like
covering over the entrance to the vagina). They both have a reason
and purpose. It is their own surprise package..for them to open..a
special present from their Creator. We have no right to open their
private packages. (to cut or fully retract the male penis, or
penetrate the girls vagina.)

Soft touches, gentle cleaning, massage, awareness of pleasure in
holiness and thanksgiving..Yes. Forceful manipulation, retraction,
penetration..No.

Let the children explore their own sexual organs all they want. It is
their body, they must learn how to pleasure themselves, nurture,
and grow, and explore others with permission. If they want a
circumcision at the age of thirteen or 99 that is their choice.

Allow him access to it...he will stretch and open it..

Boys who are not given access to their genitalia, can develop
'phimosis' a condition where the foreskin is

stuck to the glans and does not retract. The solution for this
problem is 'circumcision'.

Likewise, a common procedure with virgin brides,(young women who did
not have any clitoral stimulation during childhood) is removal of
clitoral adhesions, and these women are much more apt to have
difficulty with sexual pleasure especially orgasm.

It's their body ..allow them to feel themselves... the entire body is
an erogenous zone full of pleasure and delight . a learning
laboratory for sensations , and awareness. We're here to learn and
grow and the more we are able to be in touch with ourselves, the
greater our capacity to be present with others.

" If I am not for myself ... who will be for me ? If I am only for
myself .. what am i ?

And if not now ... when ?

As parents and caretakers of children it is not our task to make them
into copies of ourselves but to allow them to be the unique and
beautiful spirits that they are.

Sex in Hebrew is called 'beah' or 'knowing..and adam 'knew' eve and
she conceived.

One must first learn and 'know' oneself..in order to be able to
'know' another.

Marriage in Hebrew is "Kiddushin" .."Holiness"..wholeness and
holiness sound the same and are closely related. When we see or sense
the wholeness and inter-connectedness of all creation..this leads
us into paths and directions of holiness.

In the middle of 2006, a study was published concerning HIV
transmission and circumcision among African males. The conclusion of
this study, recommended circumcision as a form of prevention for HIV.

I was not surprised at the results. "Cleanliness is next to
Godliness"..and if the foreskin is gone...then viruses and bacteria
have less places to hide..

In the same vein, we can remove our children's teeth ..and there will
be little possibility for tooth decay!

Another factor in HIV transmission in Africa is that many African men
prefer 'dry sex', which increases the possibility of tissue
abrasion and viral transmission.

In a Culture that performs clitorectomies and other variant forms of
female genital mutilation..because it is not deemed 'proper' for a
woman to have too much pleasure in sex,

it is not surprising that there is an enormous amount of dis-ease and
dysfunction in sex and sense.

Most people in western cultures view female genital mutilation as
primitive and barbaric; but hold male circumcision in a totally
different light. Our cultural bias obviously creates blinders from
which we cannot see clearly.

The removal of the clitoris is a small piece of skin.... in fact,
composed of the same cellular structure as the male foreskin, and the
lips.

If it were only the cutting of a small little piece of skin (male
foreskin or clitoris) that had no function or purpose it would not be
such a 'big' deal. But this small little piece of skin, grows along
with the rest of the body, to become a 3 by 5 inch sheet of
foreskin composed of the most sensitive tissue, with function and
purpose.

The code of the Jewish law is called "halacha" (the way). Within the
Code, there is a provision that if a mother looses a son because of
circumcision occurred, she is NOT obligated to circumcise her next
son. I extrapolate from this, the inter-connection of my human
family, that enough deaths and maiming have occured because of
circumcision. Therefore - circumcision is no longer a requisite.

Brit Milah' is the hebrew for the covenant of 'circumcision'. 'Mila'
also means 'word'.. We can welcome the child with songs and praises
and holy words..gentle tones, and soft touches and smiles.

Infants are great teachers of gentleness,tenderness, softness,
quietness, forgiveness, and peace. We can use a drop of wine instead
of blood, and give Praise to our Creator for the gift of life..and
celebrate together in joy holiness and thanksgiving.

If you feel that you must do some ritual 'blood-letting'..less is
better..return to the original concept, a small snip off the tip ..or
a drop of blood from a needle prick.

Just as we no longer practice the animal sacrifices in the
traditional temple, so let us not sacrifice an important piece of our
mammal in the temple of tradition. Let us be holy beings in our sex
and spirit - they are connected beyond our imaginings, and let us
start with bright beginnings, wonder, prayer, gratitude, and grace.
Spare the pain, nature will provide plenty of 'owie' opportunities.
Let us comfort, console, love, and caress, and yes - Bless each other
in holy love. Listen, Yah is One.

What really matters? Love - water - food - shelter! I choose life
that I might live, to love Yah with all my heart, with all my soul,
and with all my might. And, I will love my neighbor as myself.

Amen.

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MysticMelody
Moderator

Posts: 3521
From:
Registered: Dec 2005

posted March 04, 2007 03:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MysticMelody     Edit/Delete Message
"But, then again, if men were meant to have foreskins, they'd be born with them."

Perfect!
Thanks for the info too.

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aqua inferno
Knowflake

Posts: 1106
From: hopping about Europe
Registered: Oct 2006

posted March 04, 2007 05:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aqua inferno     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
it is even illegal in much of Europe

Yeah I know, unless for medical reasons I’d imagine. Don’t think it’s illegal in the uk.
quote:
Wish I was Swedish...

it’s over rated
wait, why? are you circumcised?
quote:
Like I said, you're experience sounds limited as far as circumcision goes. I don't mean that as an insult, or anything - I just hope that, if you're ever put in a position where you're making permanent and irreversible choices regarding someone else's genitals, you don't just base your decision on limited hearsay. There are no second chances, here.

So everything I know is hearsay, yet what you’ve said and quoted is gospel.
You’re one sided and emotionally involved, I can’t take anything seriously. That’s not an insult.
quote:
Oh, absolutely. Female mutilation is horrid, and I would do anything to end it. I'm not arguing there. But, because one is worse, it doesn't make the other ok, or lessen the effects for those impacted by it.

Of course, because the other’s worse, it does not make it ok. But it’s easier to defend female mutilation, because for one, there’s no one important to defend it.

But there are people who defend male circumcision, why would anyone defend it in this day and age if it’s so horrid? And do Doctors encourage it where you’re from? I mean if a bunch of Doctors say it’s ok...and it’s legal...and it’s common..
Plus we’re not talking about some backwards 3rd world country.

You’ve got stiff opposition.

But you do see why some people think it’s not that bad.

quote:
Oh, yes, I'm biased. I'm a male who was cut against his will

That answers my question.
quote:
because circumcision is a huge industry in the US - it's the most common surgery performed, and, with the sale of the leftover foreskins, it is a multi-hundred-million dollar-a-year industry.

ewww sale? But I have heard of those moisturisers.

Even stiffer opposition...no pun

quote:
Not trying to be confrontational, but I doubt you'd say something like that to me if I was a *female* victim of sexual mutilation.

If you got the whole head removed, that’d be a different story. Actually I assumed you weren’t circumcised. I’m sorry something was done without your consent, especially something like this. You seem emotional about this subject, I now see why.

I was not trying to be hurtful, but I dislike anyone mentioning female circumcision when discussing male. They’re two different things. But I suppose it’s an honest (albeit ignorant) mistake.

If I had a son, I won’t get it done. We don’t do it in my family, sex is not suppressed. I was certainly allowed to do whatever at a young age

BUT if his father had it done, or really feels it should be done, I don’t know if I’d say no. Surely someone with a penis would know more about it than me.

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Johnny
Knowflake

Posts: 2056
From: Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 04, 2007 06:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
wait, why? are you circumcised?

Um, yes.

quote:
So everything I know is hearsay, yet what you’ve said and quoted is gospel.
You’re one sided and emotionally involved, I can’t take anything seriously. That’s not an insult.

And I'm not insulted. I *am* emotionally involved, for obvious reasons, and I *am* one-sided. But I've been researching and debating this issue for several years; I've consulted doctors, I've read probably thousands of pages of studies, and, most importantly, I have a penis that is scarred and doesn't work right. I'm one-sided because, through all of my research and all my personal experiences, I've only seen one side that is valid.

But, if anything I say sounds off to you, tell me and I'll prove it. That's the best I can do.

quote:
But there are people who defend male circumcision, why would anyone defend it in this day and age if it’s so horrid?

1. Men who are circumcised and self-conscious about it. I should know; I was one. It is very, very hard to take something so close to you, something into which so much of your emotional stability is invested, and really look at it objectively. If you are a circumcised man, trust me - you do NOT want to believe that circumcision is not the best thing in the world.

The first stage of grief is denial.

This guy explains it better than I can, if you're interested: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/index.html

All the articles are great, but the one called "The Vulnerability of Men" is the one I'm talking about.

2. People who are misinformed. Mostly these will be Americans. They've grown up hearing that circumcision is good, they're going to believe it and defend it.

3. Some doctors. Generally, in my experience, most doctors say that the reasons they perform circumcision is because the parents request it. But there are doctors who recommend it, too - they are probably not malicious, but they do not know what they're doing. See http://doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/

There might be others that I'm forgetting. It's late. But if you want to present any arguments from any of them, I'll be happy to disprove them. Because, without exception, they're bullsh*t. Really, try me.

quote:
And do Doctors encourage it where you’re from? I mean if a bunch of Doctors say it’s ok...and it’s legal...and it’s common..

100,000 lemmings can't be wrong.

Really, it seems to me that all the medical training and popular opinion in the world shouldn't be enough to challenge basic natural common sense - nature does not include superfluous or harmful parts on it's creatures. All male mammals have foreskins - does it make sense that the human male is the only creature on the planet that requires immediate surgical correction at birth?

quote:
Plus we’re not talking about some backwards 3rd world country.

Let me put it this way: do you think that the American medical system is infallible?

quote:
But you do see why some people think it’s not that bad.

I don't know how to say this... When I first started looking into this, I did it because I wanted to prove to myself that circumcision was good. I really, really wanted to believe that. I know the arguments for it. And they are all wrong.

quote:
ewww sale? But I have heard of those moisturisers.

Even stiffer opposition...no pun


So, wait, did you read the article? And you're saying that selling foreskins for $4,000 a pound so they can be put in moisturizers is an argument for circumcision?

I mean, I was saying that it sounded like a good reason for the medical industry to keep the practice going, seeing as how they're making good money on it. But I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

quote:
If you got the whole head removed, that’d be a different story.

You're a woman, right? I don't think you're really qualified to say this, if so. The foreskin is where most of the nerves are, and, without it, the head dries out and keritinizes (callouses), burying most of the nerves. Trust me, it's pretty numb.

quote:
I was not trying to be hurtful, but I dislike anyone mentioning female circumcision when discussing male. They’re two different things. But I suppose it’s an honest (albeit ignorant) mistake.

Please see this page: http://www.noharmm.org/comparison.htm

It's not ignorant; it's a valid comparison.

Listen to this:

quote:
"If the male needs circumcision for cleanliness and hygiene, why not the female? The procedure is easy. The same reasons that apply for the circumcision of males are generally valid when considered for the female."

- C.F. McDonald, MD, Milwaukee, WI
GP, vol.XVIII, no. 3, pp. 98-99
September 1958
http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html

I can see why you find it offensive; after all, you're an intact female, and you know what it would be like if someone amputated parts down there. They're all pretty essential, right?

Well, it's the same thing in men. The foreskin has often been referred to as "the male clitoris," as that's where the vast majority of the nerves are. Not to mention all the specialized structures, estrogen receptors, etc. that are included in it.

I keep wondering what I'm doing that is making you think I'm arguing this from a position of ignorance.

quote:
If I had a son, I won’t get it done. We don’t do it in my family, sex is not suppressed. I was certainly allowed to do whatever at a young age

Awesome. You have no idea how much I envy you.

quote:
BUT if his father had it done, or really feels it should be done, I don’t know if I’d say no. Surely someone with a penis would know more about it than me.

So everyone who has a penis knows more about it than you... except me. Thanks.

No, but seriously. I forget who said it, but there's a quote that goes "The worst thing about circumcision is that it creates circumcisers." It's really true. Men who are cut have a huge emotional need to believe it is a good thing. If he wants it done, it's not going to be because he's studied it and is making an informed decision on what's best for his son.

And, even if it is, it's still not his, or yours, or anyone else's decision to make, except the man that that baby will someday become.

Which is why, again, I hope this bill passes. (Please, God.)


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aqua inferno
Knowflake

Posts: 1106
From: hopping about Europe
Registered: Oct 2006

posted March 04, 2007 06:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aqua inferno     Edit/Delete Message
Hey Johnny,
I don’t want you to think I’m some cold hearted b1tch. Not true! That just comes across when I have my logic cap on.
Anyway, I don’t believe that sex should be repressed. I certainly wouldn’t want to teach my child that sex is wrong. I couldn’t manipulate their mind like that, teaching a child their body is wrong or sinful can do a lot of damage. Circumcision is taking it to the next step, as in punishing if I should ever have a child, and it happens to be a boy, circumcision is out of the question – regardless of what my baby’s daddy says

Anyway, just wanted to say that actually it’s my dog that made me think about this, cause he’s been neutered, not to say he shouldn’t have been. Dogs do need it, just making that clear!
Random and off topic, I know.

Oh! you already replied :/

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Johnny
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Posts: 2056
From: Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 04, 2007 06:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
I didn't think that you're cold-hearted or a b*tch, Aqua Inferno. Hope I don't come across like that. I know I'm not great at debating this; I sort of have issues, heh. In case that's not super-obvious, already, lol. I appreciate your patience.

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Johnny
Knowflake

Posts: 2056
From: Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 04, 2007 06:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
I forgot this.

quote:
You’ve got stiff opposition.

Much stiffer support, though. Like, um, the United Nations Non-Gov organization NOCIRC. http://nocirc.org/

Did you know that not one major medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision? Not one. Many, however, recommend against it.

Just wanted to add that.


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aqua inferno
Knowflake

Posts: 1106
From: hopping about Europe
Registered: Oct 2006

posted March 04, 2007 07:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aqua inferno     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
So, wait, did you read the article? And you're saying that selling foreskins for $4,000 a pound so they can be put in moisturizers is an argument for circumcision?

My dear it’s not an argument for, but something that’s gonna make banning it difficult.
quote:
You're a woman, right? I don't think you're really qualified to say this, if so. The foreskin is where most of the nerves are, and, without it, the head dries out and keritinizes (callouses), burying most of the nerves. Trust me, it's pretty numb...

Well, it's the same thing in men. The foreskin has often been referred to as "the male clitoris," as that's where the vast majority of the nerves are. Not to mention all the specialized structures, estrogen receptors, etc. that are included in it.



I really had no idea
Just to make it clear I don’t think you’re ignorant. And about my dog being neutered, I’m not comparing it to circumcision! Just to make it clear.

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aqua inferno
Knowflake

Posts: 1106
From: hopping about Europe
Registered: Oct 2006

posted March 04, 2007 07:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aqua inferno     Edit/Delete Message
Johnny I’m against it all right? anything repressing sex is pure evil in my book. I thought it was for health, I was wrong. I don’t say that often!


There ya go, one less (unborn) baby boy who'll avoid it

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Johnny
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Posts: 2056
From: Colorado, USA
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 04, 2007 07:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
There ya go, one less (unborn) baby boy who'll avoid it

Thanks, Aqua Inferno. May sound silly, but that makes my week.

quote:

My dear it’s not an argument for, but something that’s gonna make banning it difficult.

Lol, get some multi-billion dollar class-action lawsuits going and then see how attractive they think it is.

It'll happen, I think. Truth cannot be suppressed forever.

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aqua inferno
Knowflake

Posts: 1106
From: hopping about Europe
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posted March 04, 2007 07:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for aqua inferno     Edit/Delete Message
lol I'm glad

btw, I know I’m beating a dead horse, but the reason my dog reminded me of circumcision is cause he’s a Cocker Spaniel – so umm yeah..

off to eat lunch

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Johnny
Knowflake

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posted March 04, 2007 07:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Johnny     Edit/Delete Message
Cocker Spaniel. It took me a moment to get that.

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cancerrg
Knowflake

Posts: 2668
From:
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posted March 04, 2007 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cancerrg     Edit/Delete Message
oh well , i didn't all the posts but just a point , i dont think circumcision should be attached to hygiene issue , as we in our religion dont circumcise (that means half a billion males ) and i am yet to see it creating any major health problems .


:::Thanks so much, Pix. Heh, I get so nervous when I see this thread has replies. Confrontation isn't my strong suit, lol.

:::

whenever you need the help bro ! i am quite good at it !


pix: how is the pisces gentleman ? when are we getting the good news ! eagerly waiting !

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