posted March 20, 2007 07:08 PM         

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And here I thought the name of this thread was
Look We Have A Chance To Knock Steve Down A Peg

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posted March 20, 2007 08:57 PM         

I've asked you several questions which have gone unanswered. All I received were quotes. Of course this is your right. If you feel comfortable with that, by all means. If you feel it's best to ignore me, then by all means that is also well within your right. However, having claimed an appreciation of Sufi thought, I assumed you might have something to share regarding jwarner's timely post. In fact, being a humble student of Sufi thought myself, I thought possibly we might have a rip roaring conversation regarding this quintessential Sufi parable. But that was not to be. Another story concerning a certain well-read student of Molana and the seemingly strange advice he received comes to mind. Maybe that would better suit your interest.

Your words to Juni are unfounded. She speaks with wisdom you can not see because your arrogance blinds you. Perhaps that is the true greatness of this humility you so easily dismiss. Humility listens. What's more, it appears you have a inaccurate understanding of what it means to contemplate.

In the interest of peace and understanding, permit me a personal story? By the Grace of God, I recently had a mid size (in my estimation. I might be wrong) snake wrenched from my gut. It wasn't pretty. Juni can confirm the ugliness of it. Fool that I am, I fought to keep it. I can't say I look forward to the next go 'round but I certainly acknowledge the necessity of it. I've no doubt that a kind and competant passerby will eventually wrest a snake from your innards as well. No doubt you will then more clearly exhibit that bright being we all know you to truly be. No doubt you will then have a good and justifiable reason to "brag". No doubt you will no longer feel such need.

Because you so love quotes I will share one with you ...

posted March 20, 2007 09:13 PM         

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So, if one of the kids in my class hits another member of the class I don't tell them off because on some higher level they were going to do it anyway?!

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Incorrect. This is not what determinism implies. The child necessarily had to do what he did, but that does not mean that, in the present moment, he may not be corrected and educated about the consequences of his actions. In a subjective sense, it is true that, what you do in the present moment can change the future. I am not denying this and neither is the Determinist position. All that is being said is that there are causes beyond your control which brought you to this moment, and any choice you make in this moment is determined by your awareness. Your awareness is not determined by you. Although you make choices based on your present awareness which may or may not lead to greater awareness in the future, the choices you make now are determined by your present awareness, and your present awareness is determined by past circumstances (including past awareness, and all the determinents which collectively make up your nature and environment).

Why is this so difficult for you guys?

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Sorry if the tone sounds flippant but if we don't take responsibility for our actions, who else does?

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Have you ever heard the saying "who will police the police"? Basically, the gist here is that, if the police, who are supposed to be responsible for fighting crime, are themselves corrupt, then you need a third party to fight (or police) the police. In the case of a person, the same is true. If a person's perspective is corrupt - limited, ignorant, perverse - then, how is that person free to make choices which are not limited, ignorant, and perverse? "I will surely take responsibility for myself, but who will take responsibility for me?"

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Now, do tell me how love leads eventually to Determinism...

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If you love people enough, you will be moved to try to understand them... Trying to understand them, you will inquire into the reasons behind their choices... Inquiring into the reasons behind their choices, you will uncover reasons for the reasons,... reasons for the reasons for the reasons, etc., ad infinitum. You can trace everything back to the Big Bang. Unless you caused the entire universe, you did not determine the "ancestors" of your choices, and these "ancestors" determine the shape and color of your choices.

AG,

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If you understand Determinism, then you should understand that you can talk for eternity and not convince someone who is predisposed not to be convinced by you.

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This is true, AG. But, "God knows" who is determined not to be convinced by me, and who is determined to be convinced by me. From my perspective, down here on earth, I can only do my best, and let God take care of the rest. Of course, my best is also in the hands of God.

In response to your comments about teaching: You are right. I am still learning how to effectively communicate my points, and perhaps there are things you think I ought to have learned by now. But, since I have not learned them, it must be because I'm a slow learner.

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First, it's astonishing in that you're railing against something that was pre-destined to exist.

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No it isn't. For one thing, I am human. I have emotions. To govern my emotions according to my logical understanding 100% of the time is not realistic. Secondly, my railing against a thing, as you say, may or may not alter it in the future (if not the past).

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How, as a Determinist, can you rectify that? These people are destined to believe in Free Will for as long as has been destined. Forcing the issue could work, but it could also not work. Either way it wouldn't be up to you to decide.

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That's right. But, again, if I do not know what the consequences will be, why would it be more reasonable not to try (as you seem to be suggesting). Better at least to try, don't you think? In any case, it is what I think, and am determined to think.

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Secondly, it's astonishing in that you say Free Will causes behaviors. A Determinist wouldn't say that the idea of Free Will causes behaviors. You (as a Determinist) believe that one's behaviors are a result of one's mental faculties of which one has no means of affecting, so how in the world could Free Will cause behaviors?

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I was speaking of the idea of free will. Naturally, free will cannot cause anything if it does not exist. The idea is pernicious. That is what I am saying. And it is not out of line for a Determinist to speak of things as causes, as long as it is understood that all causes are only "local causes" and, at their roots, they are effects before they are causes. One's mental faculties, among other things, determine the ideas one accepts or denies, which in turn determine subsequent perceptions, choices, and events in the world. This is not to say that, when presented with other external influences (ideas, arguments, pressures), or due to conscious and unconscious processes from within, ideas which have been accepted may not be discarded.

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Further, if you take Determinism out of the debate, and simply focus on Free Will, it's plain for most people that Free Will can also cause good and positive behavior. Much of the idea of Free Will centers around one becoming better than they were previously. Free Will is synonymous with self-improvement for most; i.e. choosing to do the right thing.

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We make choices based on our consciousness. If our consciousness is unbiased and highly aware, we will make positive choices. If it is not, we will make negative ones. Our awareness increases as we learn from experience. "Decades it takes a child to turn into a poet." Clearly, it is not possible to make a choice based on awareness gleaned from experiences we have yet to endure, right? Our choices are determined by our present awareness and experience. We are not free to make choices based on any other level of awareness or experience than that which we possess in the present moment. We cannot make choices from a lesser awareness - for instance, you will not repeat the mistakes you have already learned from, - nor can we make choices based on a level of awareness we have not yet attained. We are not free to make any choice other than the one which proceeds from our present level of awareness. I repeat, the choices we make are the manifestations of our present awareness. There is nothing between the awareness, and the choice which follows from it. In other words, it is not possible to stop oneself, and decide whether or not to obey one's awareness - that is absurd, for any such considerations would be dependent upon our awareness, and we cannot choose to be unaware of that which we are aware of - or, as I said, to make a choice which would follow from a greater or lesser awareness.

alchemiest,

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Ah, but why would you need to determine your perspective from someone else's?

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posted March 20, 2007 09:26 PM         

I might have overlooked a post of yours. I will try to address your objections soon. I'm a little overwhelmed at the moment. As you can see, I've been responding to objections almost non-stop for the past week or so. I appreciate your patience, and thank you for speaking up. Sorry I missed you. When I posted those quotes I was very discouraged by the fact that I seemed to be hitting my head against a brick wall. I hoped the quotes would at least show that I am not alone in thinking as I do.

soon,
S

Everyone,
That's it for me, I think.
I've hardly been sleeping the past few days,
and its time for some much needed beauty sleep,
before my posts get any uglier, lol.

Love to all,
s

posted March 20, 2007 09:28 PM         

I started to post a response but I realized it would just be muffled under the ego battle that has emerged. This thread totally has derailed from a reasonable discussion of spiritual bragging to an emotional pride-fest mixed with a dash of false prophets, conspiracy theorists, and paranoids. Not that I'm judging, everyone is free to their own beliefs, but this topic has definitely derailed and the brakes are gone.

posted March 20, 2007 10:28 PM         

"Change is the constant, the signal for rebirth, the egg of the phoenix."

-- Christina Baldwin

Sometimes we repeat the Inner Journey messages in the series. Please guard against saying, "I’ve seen this one -- I don’t need to read it again."

The truth is: we are always changing. Who you are now is different from who you were when you read the message the first time. The circumstances of your life have changed as well. As a result, you may be open to new perspectives this time around.

Our ego is prone to think it knows it all, but life always offers us fresh and new experiences.

"It all depends on how we look at things and not on how they are in themselves."

-- C.G. Jung

posted March 20, 2007 10:51 PM         

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cool fish, fayte

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posted March 20, 2007 11:24 PM         

But you might have to put it into lamens terms for a lamen like me!

posted March 21, 2007 12:16 AM         

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I'm with you Fayte.
I started to post a response but I realized it would just be muffled under the ego battle that has emerged. This thread totally has derailed from a reasonable discussion of spiritual bragging to an emotional pride-fest mixed with a dash of false prophets, conspiracy theorists, and paranoids. Not that I'm judging, everyone is free to their own beliefs, but this topic has definitely derailed and the brakes are gone.

With so many of the threads that light up, like these ones, I feel like I'm at a party. Everyone is drinking and talking, but no one is really listening. Everyone is trying to be heard but there are no ears only open mouths.

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Now that's truth, BR!!! lmao At this point Squidward would be saying "That's it, I'm getting off the loony express." lol

I am not so sure that we are off the topic of spiritual bragging though because we have gotten derailed by all the spiritual bragging on this thread. lol Which proves the point that I made sometime back, that actions speak louder than words.

AG and HSC, I think the two of you should go off and debate determinism in private or start a new thread on determinism. Mainly since both of you seem to be convinced that the rest of us are just too dumb to be able to debate the issue. It seems the thread is now going to be turned into another testosterone battle of who is smarter, who is wiser, who knows more about what, and who has the biggest male organ.

The only argument against determinism is free will and most of us have already given that argument on other threads. No point in debating it again here.

HSC, The TRUTH that you wish to "provoke learning" in all of us with is YOUR TRUTH. Your TRUTH is not my TRUTH nor is it the truth of many others here on this thread. We all have our own truths which we HAVE shared with you and yet you say we have not been able to give any responses to your overwhelming wisdom and knowledge that apparently is even greater than all the learned and wise spiritual teachers dating back BC. You would have us learn from you but then you suggest that there are none of us here smart enough or wise enough to match you. Sorry, but that really turns me off.

For that reason I do not wish to continue any discussion with someone who is absolutely convinced that he is equal to God in being ALL KNOWING and for that reason does not listen to or even respect anyone else's opinion that may differ from his own. The doctrine of determinism is just as fatal to ethics as it is to the Christian notion that we are responsible for our acts and there will be reward and punishment as we will be answerable for those acts. But it makes for a good cop out from responsibility and it does feed materialism and egoism.

posted March 21, 2007 12:27 AM         

"The doctrine of determinism is just as fatal to ethics as it is to the Christian notion that we are responsible for our acts and there will be reward and punishment as we will be answerable for those acts."

You said that far better than I could, and its something that I've been turning over for a while. Any ideology that takes away responsibility for our actions is detrimental towards human evolution. If there's any reason to be opposed to determinism then this is it. I would agree that it is seemingly impossible to prove or disprove determinism, the only option remaining is the personal proof of what "feels" wrong. And not being responsible for one's action feels wrong to me. Then again, maybe I'm on the crazy train now?

Mirandee did I read somewhere you are a cap?

posted March 21, 2007 12:43 AM         

I didn't say or insinuate (in my mind) that anyone else couldn't comprehend what HSC talks about. I insinuated that I can debate HSC, and I'm pretty certain that's all.

Further, my first post of today was also pointed toward his somewhat rude post to you in Hippichick's thread. For some reason, he seems to believe that you should break at some point, and come over to his side, but that's not how people work. Persistence doesn't always pay off, especially when you're trying to peddle an idea that people can die happy without ever knowing. There's no necessity for anyone to know Determinism in order to live a fulfilling life.

posted March 21, 2007 12:45 AM         

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Well, let's consider the alternative. If you seek to create your own perspective, you must start from somewhere. The place you must start from is already your perspective, and you did not create it. So, the perspective you create now, will be determined by the perspective you hold now, which you did not create.

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This does not provide a justification for the premise that you do not create your perceptions. Rather, it just moves it down to yet another level. (You say that you must start from an already existent perspective that you did not create. What justifies this assumption?)

That being said, I believe that physical causal determinism has much more going for it in terms of justifiability as opposed to metaphysical determinism. Think billiard ball causal relationships. For the latter, at some point, usually at the very foundation of the argument, faith features as a huge assumption that buttresses the rest of the argument. Faith is subjective and improvable. Really, it's quite the antithesis of deterministic theory. Hence, any argument for determinism that rests upon metaphysical faith as a foundation invariably defeats its own purpose, no matter how prettily its intricacies are drawn out.

posted March 21, 2007 12:57 AM         

"Great people talk about ideas.
Average people talk about things.
Small people talk about other people."

Disgusting
*sticks finger in mouth and makes puking noise*

have fun continuing your conversation unimpeded by any ideas
can't wait to see all the ideas and enlightenment that results from your exchange

posted March 21, 2007 01:01 AM         

When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful,
A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.
And all the birds in the trees, well theyd be singing so happily,
Joyfully, playfully watching me.
But then they send me away to teach me how to be sensible,
Logical, responsible, practical.
And they showed me a world where I could be so dependable,
Clinical, intellectual, cynical.

There are times when all the worlds asleep,
The questions run too deep
For such a simple man.
Wont you please, please tell me what weve learned
I know it sounds absurd
But please tell me who I am.

Now watch what you say or theyll be calling you a radical,
Liberal, fanatical, criminal.
Wont you sign up your name, wed like to feel youre
Acceptable, respecable, presentable, a vegtable!