posted March 21, 2007 01:37 AM         

I really like you BR, now say ten times "I will not use the words "Crazy Train" in vain ever again" and all will be forgiven.

All aboard

Crazy, but that's how it goes
Millions of people living as foes
Maybe it's not too late
To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

Mental wounds not healing
Life's a bitter shame
I'm goin' off the rails on a crazy train
I'm goin' off the rails on a crazy train
Let's go

I've listened to preachers, I've listened to fools
I've watched all the dropouts who make their own rules
One person conditioned to rule and control
The media sells it and you live the role

Mental wounds still screaming
Driving me insane
I'm goin' off the rails on a crazy train
I'm goin' off the rails on a crazy train

I know that things are going wrong for me
You've gotta listen to my words, yeah

Heirs of a cold war, that's what we've become
Inheriting troubles, I'm mentally numb
Crazy, but what do I care
I'm living with something that just isn't fair

posted March 21, 2007 02:02 AM         

Hands of Time
You see'em pass you by
Witness the pain
That it leaves behind
Shadow grows darker
And weakens the soul
It takes you away when
The winds are blowin' cold
Whoa-ooooh whoa-ooooh whoa-oh
Phantom Rider (rider, rider)
Please don't take me away yeah
Away-ay-ay no
Time is everlasting
But nothing out lasts time
Whatever comes must go it seems
It's not ours to question why
Just lift your hands up to the sky
And taste the warmth of the sun
Keep livin' for the moment
But your time is gonna come
Chorus
Whoa-aaah hey yeah-ah yeah
You can feel it comin'
The older that you grow
And when your time has come at last
There's some things you'll never know
So always remember
To keep your guard held high
Cause you'll never know when
The Phantom will make his faithful ride
Chorus x2
Don't you take me away no-oo
Don't you take me away

posted March 21, 2007 02:10 AM         

LOL....I totally know that feeling.

"I'm taking my ball and going home." Sorry for using the word crazy train. What I should have stated more compassionately is my emphasis on the here and now. I do empathize with people, and I consider their feelings, but at the same time, I am not concerned when someone is upset with me. A persons anger is like a falling leaf to me, it shows up on the radar, then falls to the ground and crumbles to bits. All is paper, two dimensional, and will come out in the wash. Just as all of us must die all too soon, a passing mood, an emotion, a conflict, dies quickly as well. The ephemeral nature of life is, however, what makes it so beautiful.

It's fun to speculate and talk about other dimensions, realms, realities, but can we WORK with those, can we USE them to really improve this rock called Earth? Which is not to say these experiences and ideas aren't valid. Which is not to say there isn't such a thing as a reptilian, or an astral realm, or a ghost, or a boogie man, or santa clause. It's just my personal preference to discuss spirituality in a manner that is practical and grounded and can help us day to day. (For example, any and all of Solane Stars postings, love you solane, your posts are ALL appreciated.)

Many people have suggest that I am crazy for even mentioning the possibility of a god, a soul, a non physical reality, other worlds. It's surprising how mean people can get when you say anything that goes against their world view. It seems that ideas are more important than compassion sometimes. Sadly.

posted March 21, 2007 02:19 AM         

quote:

---

It seems wherever we have braggarts we have the "bearer of the pin," who pops the ego of the braggart. (right AG? )

---

posted March 21, 2007 02:22 AM         

quote:

---

To a certain extent, determinism can be usefully applied here, people are a result of their circumstances in many ways. Their genetics, their parents, their social influence. If someone is a drug addict or homeless, its easy to blame them, but then again, could they have helped prevent this? Should we not show compassion and love towards these people, for there but the grace of god go we? So here we see that determinism can be used to bolster compassion, a big for determinism.

---

posted March 21, 2007 03:06 AM         

Thank you, BR. I try to be a voice of reason. Nice to know that you noted it and appreciate it. Likewise, I appreciate you for the wisdom you have shown many times on the threads at LL and on this thread. I also like your sense of humor.

No I am not a cappy. Though I love cappies. I am a taurus/pisces/cancer.

I had some thoughts today regarding ego and humility. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in our accomplishments and there is nothing wrong with a healthy ego. We could not live without a healthy ego. However I think that many people misunderstand humility.

In today's world it seems the thought of being "humble" or having "humility" is almost thought of as a bad thing. I think that is due to the lack of understanding regarding what true humility is. It is also due to the present thinking in society that "image is everything." In fact, if you need to create some image of yourself it means that you have very low self-worth and cannot accept yourself as you are so you fear that others will not accept you just for who and what you are either. Humility is the opposite of all that need to create and maintain a false image.

Being humble does not mean that you should be self-effacing. To the contrary. It does not mean that you can't have a healthy ego. Being humble is knowing exactly what and who you are, knowing what your gifts are, and knowing your imperfections as well, and liking yourself - even loving yourself in a healthy, non-narcissitic or superior way - and yet still seeing yourself in light of the oneness of all things.

A humble person knows what they know and they just throw it out there. As Lia said, they plant the seed. Then they let it go. Those that are ready for it will accept it as truth and those who are not ready will not accept it. But maybe when they are ready they will recall the words even if they forget who spoke them and those words will take root.

A humble person does not care whether or not people remember it was he/she who spoke the words. Because a humble person knows his/her mission in regards to teaching is to just plant the seeds and let go of it. The words, the truth is what matters. Getting the credit or being remembered as being the one who said it matters little to a humble person. Let go of the need to force, to control and direct other people's journies.

That not only applies to religion, spirituality of any kind, but it applies to all things in life. A good teacher knows they are there to plant the seeds but also to learn in the process from those that they would teach. HSC even said that on this thread. Yet....

That is true humility. Are we all equal? Yes, in soul and spirit we are. However there will in this world always be greater and lesser people than ourselves. There will always be those who are prettier and more handsome than we are and richer as well. Humility just accepts that. It doesn't dwell on it or give any importantance to it. Because a humble person is assured in just what they are and in just being.

posted March 21, 2007 03:39 AM         

quote:

---

That must have been very hard to lose those people, I get the impression from your posts that you have been through a lot. I admire your strength and bravery for continuing on in this all too cruel world (touched on by Lia earlier very eloquently). What goes on in many people's lives, untold, hidden, is absolutely horrible, and yet amazing that people endure such hardships. To a certain extent, determinism can be usefully applied here, people are a result of their circumstances in many ways. Their genetics, their parents, their social influence. If someone is a drug addict or homeless, its easy to blame them, but then again, could they have helped prevent this? Should we not show compassion and love towards these people, for there but the grace of god go we? So here we see that determinism can be used to bolster compassion, a big for determinism.

---

Very true, BR.

People not only endure horrible hardships in their lives, they can also rise above them.

People have within them the capacity to rise above anything and change the course of their lives. That has been shown to us over and over again. Where does that capacity to alter our lives, change our directions in life and the strength and courage it takes to rise above the most horrible things that can happen to us come from if not the will? It can't come from just the mind or the desire. It takes strength of will.

It takes the mind to realize the options or choices we have, but to follow through and set into motion new events that will change our course of direction in life it also takes a great deal of strength and courage that can only be mustered up within the will of human kind.

That is what separates human kind from all other animal life. We have the capacity to change the course of our lives and overcome the worse things imaginable. Or not. And that is what makes it free will. The ability to choose whether to go on as we are or to change, overcome difficulties or succumb to them.

posted March 21, 2007 08:24 AM         

When I replied to you, HSC, I didn't realize this thread was supposed or expected to be about you or that you would assume I was speaking about you. I was touching upon the issue of Spiritual Bragging and how it affects us all.

We can all share here, right?

One last thing ... regarding equality ... I don't refer to equality on a soul level and neither do I refer to it on a mental or physical level. When I refer to equality I refer to the Spirit. From the light down to the darkness and through to the light again, as the saying goes. My belief in equality is that we all have the same right to strive for the light again. No matter what is done or said to you, the light is there for you to seek. But as no one can extinguish you, neither can another light you.

On a more materialistic level, who among us is sure that in a past life we weren't child molestors or mass murderers or something similarly rotten? It might feel swell to imagine we are better for having left that behind but we are not guaranteed that we will never sink so low, even again.

posted March 21, 2007 08:59 AM         

Everyone can benefit from reading the quote AG pasted from BR's post. Determinism breeds understanding and compassion. It is not about abdicating responsibility, though it appears that way to people who, by their own admission, have not understood it. On the contrary, when you understand that not everyone has the advantages you have, you will use your will and intelligence and compassion to help those who have less of it. Not everyone has the same abilities, not everyone has the same "freedom" to act with intelligence, compassion, and will.

Mirandee,

You make so many unjust judgements of me, I don't know where to start. I have said so many times that I do not think I know everything. I probably claim less knoweledge than almost anybody here. But I do claim to know determinism, and I stand by that, no matter how many times you tell me that this is paramount to saying I know more than God, lol. I have also tried to show how my understandings are not contrary to the teachings of the ages, though you disagree. The debate about free will is as old as dust. I'm not the first Determinist. Every mystic, as I understand it, has been a Determinnist, as well as many others.

quote:

---

People have within them the capacity to rise above anything and change the course of their lives. That has been shown to us over and over again.

---

Has it. And I suppose you are isolating, in your mind, just those cases in which people appear to have overcome their circumstances, in order to make your point? You are ignoring all the instances in which people have been overwhelmed to the point of madness, suicide, psychosis, complacency. This is the vast majority, Mirandee, and you want to ignore their experiences. You see the few great spirits who managed to overcome the Holocausts in their own lives, and from this, you conclude that it is possible for everyone. If I showed you the Mas/Pluto trines and Sun/Jupiter conjunctions, etc., in those people's charts, you would argue that it had nothing to do with their "free choice" to smile in the face of adversity.

posted March 21, 2007 09:08 AM         

quote:

---

I feel extremely grateful to the wise ones who attained long ago what I only strive for today ... and more grateful still that they didn't turn their noses up at the "less worthy" of us straggling behind them.

---

Well said. I am always amazed by people who talk about dropping their seed in passing, and quickly moving on with the assurance that, if people are ready, they'll hear it. I always thought this was a case of lazily "turning up their noses" and considering others unworthy of their time and effort. Far from turning up my nose, I have gotten down in the dirt and dug the hole before droping my seed. Then I come back to check its progress and water it frequently. In anything, I over-water, and get accused of trying to force my ideas down the throats of those who continue to debate them with me.
Oi yey!

posted March 21, 2007 09:18 AM         

"In my younger and more vulnerable years, my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.

'Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone,' he told me, 'Just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had.'

"He didn't say any more, but we've always been unusually communicative in a reserved way, and I understood that he meant a great deal more than that. In consequence, I'm inclined to reserve all judgments, a habit that has opened up many curious natures to me... Reserving judgments is a matter of infinite hope. I am still a little afraid of missing something if I forget that, as my father snobbishly suggested, and I snobbishly repeat, a sense of the fundamental decencies is parcelled out unequally at birth."

That's a full-blooded Determinist for you.
And that quote is all I have to say about that right now.
Judge me, if you must.

posted March 21, 2007 11:27 AM         

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted March 21, 2007 11:35 AM         

a very noble and worthwhile idea. and so delightful to see in action!

posted March 21, 2007 11:42 AM         

As a Master and Islamic Philosopher, he has expressed the Wisdom you call determinism, as "necessitarianism".

quote:

---

That's a full-blooded Determinist for you.

---

Not quite the end of the story.

I thought you would appreciate a link to this Work.

It can be a challenge for some to read but I know you are up to it.
http://www.7sang.com/languages/english/2006/09/mowlana_rumi_mathnavi.html

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted March 21, 2007 12:32 PM         

quote:

---

HSC, The TRUTH that you wish to "provoke learning" in all of us with is YOUR TRUTH. Your TRUTH is not my TRUTH nor is it the truth of many others here on this thread. We all have our own truths which we HAVE shared with you and yet you say we have not been able to give any responses to your overwhelming wisdom and knowledge that apparently is even greater than all the learned and wise spiritual teachers dating back BC. You would have us learn from you but then you suggest that there are none of us here smart enough or wise enough to match you. Sorry, but that really turns me off.

For that reason I do not wish to continue any discussion with someone who is absolutely convinced that he is equal to God in being ALL KNOWING and for that reason does not listen to or even respect anyone else's opinion that may differ from his own. The doctrine of determinism is just as fatal to ethics as it is to the Christian notion that we are responsible for our acts and there will be reward and punishment as we will be answerable for those acts. But it makes for a good cop out from responsibility and it does feed materialism and egoism.

---

Thank you Mirandee for putting this into words better than I could!

posted March 21, 2007 02:17 PM         

An angel's smile is what you sell
You promise me heaven, then put me through hell
Chains of love got a hold on me
When passions a prison, you cant break free

Youre a loaded gun
Theres nowhere to run
No one can save me
The damage is done

Shot through the heart
And youre to blame
You give love a bad name
I play my part and you play your game
You give love a bad name
You give love a bad name

Paint your smile on your lips
Blood red nails on your fingertips
A school boys dream, you act so shy
Your very first kiss was your first kiss goodbye

Youre a loaded gun
Theres nowhere to run
No one can save me
The damage is done

- jon bon jovi

Dissident Lyrics

she nursed him there, over a night
i wasn't so sure she wanted him to stay
what to say...what to say
but soon she was down, soon he was low
at a quarter past...a holy no...
she had to turn around
when she couldn't hold, oh...she folded...
a dissident is here
escape is never, the safest path
a dissident, a dissident is here
and to this day, she's glided on
always home but so far away
like a word misplaced
nothing said, what a waste
when she had contact...with the conflict...
there was meaning, but she sold him to the state
she had to turn around
when she couldn't hold...she folded...
a dissident is here
escape is never, the safest path
a dissident, a dissident is here
she gave him away when she couldn't hold...no...she folded...
a dissident is here
escape is never, the safest path
a dissident, a dissident is here
couldn't hold on...she couldn't hold...no...she folded...
a dissident is here
escape is never the safest place
a dissident is here

posted March 21, 2007 02:44 PM         

We have to be careful not to be lulled into a false sense of security by the honeyed words of self-proclaimed gentle, compassionate souls, who, though they may be both these things, are frequently prone to self-deception and emotional bias. It is easy to think that these people's judgements are sound and impartial, due to the patient tone of their posts, but this is not always the case.

Love AND Light,
HSC

posted March 21, 2007 02:57 PM         

I have the same neptune sun conjunciton that Lia has. I don't know that Lia ever claims that she is a compassionate soul, in the way that you declare to be something of a spiritual savant. Perhaps Lia isn't compassionate in real life, but if she isn't, she has a wise understanding of the principles of compassion. I don't see how other people criticizing your approach must lead to a critcism of Lia or other's approaches.

You do make a lot of good points. However, bringing up things discussed in private emails? A scorpio should know better.

posted March 21, 2007 03:05 PM         

The arguments still being offered to defend Free Will are the same, tired and repetitive ones we have been hearing all along. No body is saying anything new. I admit that the arguments I am offering are also tired and repetitive, but, one important difference is that, the things I am saying have yet to be addressed, and that is why I repeat them. The objections are always superficial and miss the point of what I have said, so I bring us back to the track, jack. Another difference is that everyone here already agrees with and accepts slavishly these tired arguments in support of free will. Everyone, that is, except myself. So, who are you trying to impress with the force of your arguments? If you are trying to reach me, you ought to find new means, as I have already categorically refuted the arguments set before me, - the vast majority of which are emotionally biased, and do not even address themselves to the logic of Determinism.

I have good reason to believe that Determinism, when fully understood, cannot be used to excuse personal responsibility. I will not repeat them at this time. I have no desire at this time to continue arguing the emotional implications of Determinism. Rather, I want to remind you of the crucial point here, which is that, even if Determinism could be used by selfish people to excuse their selfishness, that does not mean it is untrue. A stone can be used to crush a man's head. Shall we never make use of stones to build? Shall we deny that stones exist? This is what we are talking about.

I said I would not discuss the emotional arguments at this time, but, since it is all that most of you can see, I will say a few words...

Determinism is not bad, even if it could be used to excuse bad behaviors. People who are selfish do not need reasons to excuse their selfishness, they are quite capable of inventing foolishness on their own; they are far too selfish to consider if their arguments are sound. But, good people can make use of Determinism to understand how best to be good. Good people all to often do bad things, because they think they are good things. This is responsible for more suffering in the world than anything done by selfish men. I have a lot of faith in the goodness of people (the majority, that is). I think they just need to understand some things. Determinism is one of them.

Now, if you wish to argue the emotional implications, please consider and refute (if you can) the points I have just now laid before you, rather than regurgitatiing the same and half-digested bull. Let's try to get somewhere, shall we?

posted March 21, 2007 03:10 PM         

Can you see that your sensitive, irrational approach is not reaching me?

Perhaps love is not all you need.