posted March 16, 2007 01:26 AM         

I also agree with what BR said. I think that when Jesus said, " Love you enemies and do good to those that curse you," he probably knew when he said it that would be impossible for 99.5% of the population. But he threw it out there anyway. It's what we should stive for but few of us will ever attain.

posted March 16, 2007 01:37 AM         

but don't you think that there is no general discussion ? That everyone has some particular case in mind when they express an opinion? isn't the 'general' a conglomeration of the 'particular'(s) ?

posted March 16, 2007 02:07 AM         

We make so many rash judgments of others based on our own experiences.
In psychology this is called the "fundamental assumption".

Ask yourself:

Who are the people who tend to have profound insight into philosophy and religion? Jupiterians; people with strong Jupiter, 9th house, and Sagittarius energies. Who are the people known for being truthful, at the expense of political correctness? Jupiterians. Who are the people most often accused of self-righteousness and bragging? Jupiterians. Clearly, spiritual insight and apparent "bragging" are not mutually exclusive, and, on the contrary, there appears to be a direct correlation between the two.

People without these energies, - people who are not internally compelled to seek truth and speak truth, at all costs, - cannot understand a person who has these abilities, knows they have these abilities, and openly admits to having these abilities. They naturally assume that arrogance is at work. What is actually at work is their own "fundamental assumption".

Lets face it... Some people ARE intellectually and/or intuitively superior. Imagine what it must be like to be such a person. Nearly everywhere you look, you are confronted with people pushing their inferior understandings on you and on everyone else. You dont just think their understanding is inferior, you know it. Such is the clarity of your vision in these matters. You know it in the same way that you know it when a third grader gets a multiplication problem wrong. You can see how the numbers add up, and you can spot the mistake they made. To you, it is no longer an ambiguous, nebulous sea of conjecture, but it is a very clear-cut question of right and wrong; truth and untruth. You can see that clearly. You can see where they stopped, and did not go further. You can see the question they did not think to ask. Should you try to correct that third grader? Would it be arrogant to tell the third grader that he/she is wrong? Would it be self-righteous to say, "You got it wrong. Try again." No, it wouldn't. It would be truthful and honest. Provided the third grader is not completely arrogant him/herself, he/she might admit his lack of skill, and try to learn something from someone whose assurance may be a sign that they actually know what they are talking about.

Humble yourself and face it:

From the perspective of a great mind, the vast majority of people are fools, especially when it comes to understanding abstract principles, such as we find in the study of spirituality. They will call arrogant anyone who contradicts them and does not say, "Of course, I could be wrong," because they are so used to being unsure themselves, and whenever they have expressed assurance, it has been out of arrogance. Naturally, they assume this is the case with everyone else. As far as they are concerned, abstract principles are dubious things, at best, and all spirituality is guess-work and personal taste; they can't tell true from false, so they conclude that truth cannot be known, and anyone who claims to know it must be full of pride and sh!t. Their idea of a true spiritual Master is someone who tells them that they are always right, even when they are wrong. It helps them to sleep at night, and not take this whole "truth-seeking" business too seriously.

We are living in an age insane with political correctness.
People cannot bear to think that they are wrong,
let alone tolerate hearing it.

"Fools despise correction,
and sinners fear the light."
- Solomon

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit
to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence
and fulfills the duty to express the results of his thoughts in clear form."
- Eistein

(Yes, that is indeed the beloved Einstein,
implying that he is a great spirit,
and that there are mediocre minds in the world.
What arrogance!!! LOL)

I could not find the exact quote for this one:

"[And the people rallied against Zarathustra,
saying, 'Go out from among us,
we will have no one among us who is greater.]"
- Nietzsche

"The majority of men do not think in order to know the truth,
but, rather, to assure themselves that the life they are living,
which is both habitual and agreeable to them,
is the one which coincides with the truth."
- Tolstoy

"I speak with tongues more than ye all."
- Paul the Apostle

"I am the first fruits of the Father."
- Jesus of Nazareth
(in other words, to quote fayte, quoting cathy:
"I found my center first!")

"Modesty is unbecoming of a great soul.
It is a lie given to the rabble.
It is truth and right sacrificed to social politics.
Let fools humble themselves,
and let order be established."
- HSC

Mirandee,

If you think you might be wrong, you ought to be open to instruction. People who know the truth are not wishy-washy. If you automatically rule-out every person who speaks decisively about their knowledge in spiritual matters, you will turn away every true teacher who comes into your presence.

HSC

posted March 16, 2007 02:08 AM         

I love Jesus' teachings...they're absolutely incredible. I want to get my hands on a "Jefferson" bible. Jefferson was a deist and cut all the supernatural and other historical occurences, leaving only Jesus' teachings. Einstein himself said that this bible would cure of all of mankind's ills would they just follow it. Very powerful coming from a man who was not only a scientist, but also jewish (and of course not too dumb either LOL).

posted March 16, 2007 02:16 AM         

I never heard of the Jefferson Bible, thank you. Emerson's Transcendentalism is similar, as are the writings of the Quakers and the religious essays of Leo Tolstoy. I'd also recommend, "The Gospel In Brief" by Leo Tolstoy. It's his own retelling of the gospel, stripped of dogma, and communicating only the univeral principles Christ was trying to convey.

posted March 16, 2007 02:33 AM         

Like Mirandee said :
No one can know the souls of others so there is no way of knowing who has reached higher levels of spirituality.....

as long as we r in earth school, we r all in school. no one has graduated. we could argue that there are grades, but who decides the grades and on what basis? spiritual progress is not linear.

of course there will always be people more intelligent than others, wiser than others, more compassionate than others, more patient than others....the list is loooong. which qualities do u pick (and in what order of importance) in the contest for spirituality ? (like fayte put it so aptly)

and then again who is to say that pride is wrong? or humility? which is preferable? perhaps it is best to have both in some measure??

Is truth the only thing that matters? or is it important how and when it is said? Is one person's 'truth' the same as another person's 'truth' ?

posted March 16, 2007 02:54 AM         

quote:

---

I'm taking a position that probably nobody here will understand or agree with.

---

quote:

---

We make so many rash judgments of others based on our own experiences.
In psychology this is called the "fundamental assumption".

---

posted March 16, 2007 03:00 AM         

quote:

---

Mirandee,

If you think you might be wrong, you ought to be open to instruction. People who know the truth are not wishy-washy. If you automatically rule-out every person who speaks decisively about their knowledge in spiritual matters, you will turn away every true teacher who comes into your presence.

---

I agree, HSC. I see myself in a constant state of learning. I never assume that I know all there is to know about everything which is why I am open to all forms of spirituality, not just my chosen religion and the spirituality I find in that.

I apply that to all aspects of my life, not just religion or spirituality. Being Roman Catholic by faith I would not be at a metaphysical site if that were not the case.

I have taken instruction from some of the most intelligent, learned and spiritual men and women on the planet but I also find wisdom and intelligence in my everyday encounters with other people both here at LL, at CE and in my offline life. Sometimes I have been set straight on some things by my grand kids.

The way I see it is that I know a lot more about some things than others do and they know a lot more about some things than I do. That applies to all of us. So I do not assume that I know more than someone else but I know what I know. I often change my mind on things if something sounds logical, reasonable and if someone opens my eyes to a new way of looking at something. I can't think of everything which is why I love these discussions with other people.

It's not likely that anyone will cause me to change my values and principals though. My opinions or viewpoint, yes. But not the things I believe in my soul to be true.

I might know more than you do about some things, HSC. You might know more than me about some things. That's the way it is with all of us. But none of us know all there is to know about everything. We all can learn from each other.

You know the saying, I think it was St. Paul who said it, " Once I think I know anything it is then that I become a fool." So I think it's good to be always questioning even the things that I do think I know and to live in a state of constant learning.

Speaking of Einstein, it's around his birthday, and I have read a couple of quotes by him tonight on the threads. This might not be proper on a thread where we are talking about spiritual things but I heard a funny one tonight by Jay Leno regarding Einstein.

Leno was talking about the letters of Einstein where he admitted that he had 10 mistresses. Leno said that Albert Einstein not only came up with the big bang, he lived it. LMAO

posted March 16, 2007 03:17 AM         

Gives a whole new meaning to "the blind leading the blind" doesn't it?

But then again that is why these discussions, if they don't turn into a contest of who is right and who is wrong, can be so productive.

posted March 16, 2007 04:08 AM         

quote:

---

You dont just think their understanding is inferior, you know it.

---

quote:

---

You know it in the same way that you know it when a third grader gets a multiplication problem wrong. You can see how the numbers add up, and you can spot the mistake they made.

---

quote:

---

Should you try to correct that third grader? Would it be arrogant to tell the third grader that he/she is wrong? Would it be self-righteous to say, "You got it wrong. Try again." No, it wouldn't. It would be truthful and honest. Provided the third grader is not completely arrogant him/herself, he/she might admit his lack of skill, and try to learn something from someone whose assurance may be a sign that they actually know what they are talking about.

---

quote:

---

don’t assume because you’re studying physics you’re more intelligent than others. You just have more knowledge of physics because you studied it.

---

The reason some people are ahead spiritually is because...I don’t know, they’ve been around longer and stuff. Like Pisces is the last sign, so assumed to be spiritual and beyond the ego. Do I go around saying, “hey, cause I’m a fish, I’m more spiritual, hence superior to all you crazy other signs”.

I don’t do that because I am no better, and I know it.

Reading ( good ) spiritual books, have you ever picked up an ounce of arrogance? Pride? Superiority?
It doesn’t happen, cause these people have nothing to prove. They’ve let the illusion of themselves die – They’re nothing there to feel pride.

quote:

---

Their idea of a true spiritual Master is someone who tells them that they are always right, even when they are wrong. It helps them to sleep at night, and not take this whole "truth-seeking" business too seriously.

---

Spiritual folk, they have this peacefulness about them. You feel safe, and you feel the love lol unless I pick up on that, then I don’t want to learn anything from that person. Which comes down to personal choice. Would you choose to learn from this person.

posted March 16, 2007 04:13 AM         

Is that passive-agressive laughter I hear?
Is there something you wish to say?
Are you suggesting that I am projecting?
First of all, I said "probably",
so, I am not assuming anything
(though you seem to be).
Second of all, I'm probably right.
But let's wait and see if anyone agrees with my position.

ILWL,

Your reply was very insightful.
You made me rethink some things.
I'm too tired to make my response tonight,
but I'll try to respond tomorrow.
I need to think about what you said.

Mirandee,

You always impress me with your gentle responses. Your gentle persistence may polish my jagged edges yet. I agree, we all have pieces of the puzzle. In fact, it may be that the things I have to teach are all concerned with this point, in some way or another. I have always reflected on the meaning of perception, and point of view. This is why I can negate free will; because it does not take into account the fact that we are all operating from our own unique perspectives, and our actions in the world must therefor be determined by these circumstances. It assumes that a person may be independent of his or her perspective, and this is never the case. But I digress.

I've always loved the parable of the blind men and the elephant (by Hakim Sanai), along with Sufi literature in general. The reason my own conviction does not resemble that of the blind men, is that my conviction is precisely that held by the author of the parable. I have only tried to show, again and again, that our perceptions and convictions are determined by our limits. This much can be known, and, in fact, it is a key which serves to unlock a great many mysteries. Sanai is a great spiritual thinker. I would recommend his masterful poem, "The Walled Garden of Truth". You'll find his thinking greatly resembles my own.

Night all,
HSC

posted March 16, 2007 04:55 AM         

I'm not sure we disagree as much as you think.
You misunderstood the points I was making several times.

Since when do sages judge?

Sages do not judge in the sense of condemning a person, or seeing a person as consciously "bad", but sages do indeed judge in the sense of discerning truth from falsehood. Otherwise, they would not be sages. To be a sage is to possess rare understanding. Naturally, it is better to understand than to misunderstand. "Superior" is a word that means "better", or "preferable to". Are we going to be so sensitive to words that we cannot concede that the understanding of a sage is superior to that of most people? It is, and a sage knows it, and says so.

Yes, most likely, the third grader's understanding is only inferior because he/she is younger. But it is inferior. As the child develops intellectually and experientially, he/she may surpass the adult who helped them (or tried to help them) once upon a time. In fact, we are all on our way to becoming Buddhas. Some of us are just older souls than others. Our comprehension of spiritual principles is superior, and probably always will be. But then, we had a head start.

You must understand that there is nothing inherent. No one is inherently superior. I never intended to suggest that. The person who understands that nothing is inherent, sees through egos. For this reason, such a person may say, "My understanding is superior to yours," without being arrogant. They do not consider this superiority as something inherent. It is chance. It is God's will. It is not to the credit of the ego. The deeper your understanding of this, the more power you will be given. The reason a sage is still humble even when he exalts his position, is because he knows it is only a position. It is not himself he exalts, but his understanding. The sage knows that he is not his understanding, and that others accuse him of arrogance only because they have not understood this themselves; they think he exalts himself when he exalts his understanding.

The quote you sited about physics is not from my post. I dont know who said it, but it makes sense. I would agree with it, on the condition that it takes a particularly high level of intelligence just to study physics in the first place. And the same is true with the study of abstract principles. The physicist is an authority on physics, as the metaphysicist is an authority on metaphysics. The metaphysicist's understanding of spiritual concepts is superior to the physicist's, just as the physicist's understanding of material relationships is superior to the metaphysicist's. The key difference here, though, is that one comes to understand physics by taking physics courses, while one comes to understand metaphysics by existing in the world for many many lifetimes. Remember, metaphysics means "beyond physics".

Imagine a nobel prize winning physicist stumbling upon a message board full of non-physcists who enjoy speculating about physics. Imagine this physicist tries to explain some basic concepts of physics, saying, "This is how it is done," and everyone reacts with indignation, "How dare you claim to have knowledge of physics!!! What arrogance!!!! I am entitled to my opinion, and I think "E" doesnt equal "MC2". What do you mean I have to learn calculus? What are all those numbers you are always writing, anyway? Just form a pretty theory like the rest of us, and repeat it often, without ever backing it up. If anyone challenges you, accuse them of arrogance and insensitivity. Its so much easier!" Do you see?

I agree, it is your personal choice who you will allow yourself to learn from. I would suggest to you to be open to truth, from wherever it comes, and not judge a book by its cover. I'm reminded of a parable someone posted here about a man who was very rough with another man, but it turned out he was preventing the man from an even rougher fate (I wish I could remember the particulars). I disagree with you that all spiritual masters exude peace and calm. I think if you met an enlightened person you might come away more than a little bit shocked. You might look to him or her for support, and suddenly find your ego pulled out from under you, with nowhere to turn, and nothing to hold you up. You would thrash about in anger and despair, and, finally, find yourself awakened (very rudely) from your dream.

posted March 16, 2007 04:58 AM         

As for the laughter, I can't think of anything else to add. I found the two statements mildly humorous. That's all. Continue to make of it what you will. You seem to be on one hell of a ride here lately and I'm simply enjoying the spectacle while it lasts.

posted March 16, 2007 05:10 AM         

To the spectacle!

Love to you,
HSC

posted March 16, 2007 11:05 AM         

quote:

---

What if the person feels proud of their accomplishment.

---

Well, I bet every other person does the same there is nothing unnatural about it...

posted March 16, 2007 12:35 PM         

quote:

---

m putting this question out for general discussion and debate.
What impression do you get when someone engages in spiritual bragging.
What about that makes it negative? What if the person feels proud of their accomplishment.

---

That’s not bragging, but it can be misinterpreted. And it’s a shame, that someone’s pride stops them from getting help.

A Doctor can say to someone who’s dying let me help you, I’m qualified , and you trust this person(doctor) because they went to school and studied...basically they know what they’re doing.

posted March 16, 2007 01:22 PM         

quote:

---

As we understand it, the spiritual journey is not about becoming perfect. It’s about acceptance, releasing judgment, and embracing everything in wholeness.

This is a great challenge for our personality. We’ve grown up comparing ourselves to others, always judging how we’re better and worse than those around us. And many of us are very good at finding fault with ourselves.

If we release judgment, then nothing needs to be fixed -- including you. Explore inviting your soul to help you accept all that is and experience a whole new way of living.

"Wherever you are is always the right place. There is never a need to fix anything, to hitch up the bootstraps of the soul and start at some higher place. Start right where you are."

-- Julia Camer

---

HSC, I think at many times your passion for what you believe is mistaken for arrogance due to the fact that you are intellectually gifted. I often get misunderstood even by those in my family because I express myself passionately too. It's that mars influence in my chart.

For instance, I can be talking about something and I have anger in my voice, not at the person or persons I am talking to but at the injustice or whatever I am addressing at the time. However sometimes the people I'm talking to about it think I am angry at them for bringing it up. lol I have to explain myself a lot for that reason which is why I can see it and understand it in you.

BR, I noted your question and will get back to you later with the answer but I don't have time right now to respond in detail.

posted March 16, 2007 02:07 PM         

It's quite beneath me....

Swerve

posted March 16, 2007 02:30 PM         

LOL @ Swerve.

I don't think there's anything wrong with proclaiming a spiritual truth or insight, it does not have to be done in ego. If no one ever did this, we wouldn't evolve spiritually. We need other people's ideas to permeate the collective conscsiousness and enhance all of our spiritual understanding. This is what all great religious men/women have done. To not share in fear of seeming boastful would be a far greater tragedy than boasting.

posted March 16, 2007 02:40 PM         

quote:

---

I'm far too spiritually evolved to brag about it....
It's quite beneath me....

---

LOL Swerve, though I think your statement holds truth if you don't mind me saying so. People who really are spiritually evolved don't feel the need to brag about it. My theory is that if one needs to brag, then they're really just over-compensating.