posted March 18, 2007 03:33 AM         

Um... you must not read all of my posts... hehe

I have to give examples of metaphors for a question for poetry class. I'm taking "cool cat" for sure, but I just don't know about "good cheese". Is that opposed to moldy stuff?

posted March 18, 2007 10:01 AM         

Bragging, arrogance, or what some call over-confidence is a mighty big turn off to a lot of people. So if it turns you off just tune them out. It isn't as though only one person in existence has all the truth. Neither does only one person in existence know how to express any truth best to everyone else.

I believe you (general, as in all of us) should be willing to listen to the messages you need even in spite of the messenger many times. However, if that one person didn't get it across for you, someone or something else will as long as you're ready for it. There is really no need for judging a person, no matter what side of the fence you're on, but do shamelessly judge the truth of any message for yourself.

What matters most is the message itself and that it came into the world/our conciousness. The physical body that it came through is only secondary and very often not that important at all. (Yes, I realize people may find that idea offensive but it's just my opinion.) Every message brought forth is also colored by the mind/soul experiences of the body it comes through and as not one of us is perfect, these truths do not come down to us crystal clear anyway. Even if they did come down perfectly clear, our own mind/soul experiences would color them more or less for us as with, for example, the teachings of the Christ through Jesus of Nazareth.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with being confident in your abilities, no matter what they are. The danger I see at times is that persons with highly developed skills in certain areas may lose patience and compassion for those with skills not so far developed in the same areas. The mind and/or body, imo, is truly dangerous without the heart working just as earnestly or even more so.

As for spiritual matters, there is a gulf of difference between understanding ideas or tenets intellectually and feeling them deeply within your soul. Greater still is the distance between understanding/feeling and then actually putting into practice those same ideas. Many talk but few walk, imo. I personally would rather observe someone living the truth and thus find myself impressed subtly with the sublime through their living example than have someone try to reason their truth into my skull by the sheer force of their intellectual will, no matter how well intended their efforts. Nevertheless, we each do the best we can at our present state. Love, compassion and understanding for ourselves and each other should still come out on top in the end.

(Just sharing my perspective here, not trying to convince anyone. If I've offended anyone, my apologies in advance.)

posted March 18, 2007 03:31 PM         

those were beautiful words, and true. isn't it a paradox? but yes i agree with the truth they contain. They moved me to tears.

BlueRoamer,

quote:

---

I often feel like there's an unspoken contest going on, who has the deepest most profound wisdom?

---

i feel that very strongly too. it makes me wary of making any post. it is very hard to define why I feel that way. but who knows, may be it is all in my mind.

Re: trying to be your best while posting....Of course I don't know what goes on in your mind, but I feel that it is not because you want to 'appear' a certain way. it is because you want to 'be' a certain way. And I don't see anything wrong with that. And believe me, no matter how much a person tries to hide their 'less desirable' side, sooner or later, it always does show through. So just accept the compliments that come your way

Eleanore,

quote:

---

As for spiritual matters, there is a gulf of difference between understanding ideas or tenets intellectually and feeling them deeply within your soul. Greater still is the distance between understanding/feeling and then actually putting into practice those same ideas.

---

I think I need to copy this and save it somewhere.

ILWL

********************************

The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend. - Henri Bergson

posted March 18, 2007 04:39 PM         

quote:

---

Re: trying to be your best while posting....Of course I don't know what goes on in your mind, but I feel that it is not because you want to 'appear' a certain way. it is because you want to 'be' a certain way. And I don't see anything wrong with that. And believe me, no matter how much a person tries to hide their 'less desirable' side, sooner or later, it always does show through. So just accept the compliments that come your way.

---

posted March 19, 2007 06:43 AM         

If you wanted to learn to play the piano and started learning music theory first, well, good for you. But if you don't actually get your hands on a piano and start practicing and instead only study more and more theory ... did you learn to play? And what of those people who never really studied theory much but were just naturally good at music? Their musical ear was simply excellent and they practiced every chance they had. They play without truly understanding the theories behind what they do. Who could/should teach whom? Perhaps they could learn from each other?

Anyway, I personally feel that great intellectual capacity can sometimes be a hindrance in spiritual matters simply because understanding comes so easily. One can be tempted to learn more and more without ever putting it to use. Sometimes people with great understanding feel a fervent need to teach or help others from theories they've never lived. But if every single person wanting to help others spiritually "advance" or "evolve" would simply put their efforts into helping themselves advance or evolve then what a difference we would truly see in this world! How many people would need to be taught if we all simply taught ourselves? Not to say you shouldn't share your knowledge and try to help others ever, etc. You should if you feel it is right for you. But, imo, first you should help yourself with your knowledge and thus increase your understanding even more.

I might think I truly and beyond a doubt understand auto mechanics without ever tinkering on a car but I must admit I'd be humbled by my own ignorance if I actually tried to fix a car from theory and books alone, let alone tried to teach others. Very likely many of them may have more experience with mechanics than I even if they've never sat down and studied it as I have. It's not like people walk around with a billboard on their heads saying they have experience in auto mechanics, either, so how would I truly know who knew more or less than me to begin with? But if I did try my hands at it ... and failed and kept trying ... what I would learn and how my understanding and appreciation would grow! I'd be able to help and teach even more if it were required of me. I would have enough confidence in my very real abilities to not stop everyone I meet on the street to discuss the intricate theories I'd studied and certainly not to convince them of what I believe is true. Who am I really trying to convince if I don't really know (think, feel and do) anyway? Myself or them? Sure, arrogance and bragging can come into play at this point anyway. That's why you must always remain vigilant of yourself first.

And so it comes full circle. If you want to be an excellent teacher in any subject, spiritual or not, and really help people ... live your truth every moment or at least try to. Become your truth and teach not just with your words but with your heart and your whole life. Then you will see people reach out to you for help before you have the chance to reach out to them because they will recongize the truth that lives in you when they are ready for it.

BTW, I really do try to keep my posts concise but I have yet to succeed. I'll keep trying.

posted March 19, 2007 06:54 PM         

quote:

---

I might think I truly and beyond a doubt understand auto mechanics without ever tinkering on a car but I must admit I'd be humbled by my own ignorance if I actually tried to fix a car from theory and books alone, let alone tried to teach others. Very likely many of them may have more experience with mechanics than I even if they've never sat down and studied it as I have. It's not like people walk around with a billboard on their heads saying they have experience in auto mechanics, either, so how would I truly know who knew more or less than me to begin with? But if I did try my hands at it ... and failed and kept trying ... what I would learn and how my understanding and appreciation would grow! I'd be able to help and teach even more if it were required of me. I would have enough confidence in my very real abilities to not stop everyone I meet on the street to discuss the intricate theories I'd studied and certainly not to convince them of what I believe is true. Who am I really trying to convince if I don't really know (think, feel and do) anyway? Myself or them? Sure, arrogance and bragging can come into play at this point anyway. That's why you must always remain vigilant of yourself first.

---

*Claps* Extremely well said. The more people circumvent their lives around a false vision of self imposed fantasies, the more they lose their touch with who they ACTUALLY are. Happens way too many time; especially on the online world.

"Who am I really trying to convince if I don't really know (think, feel and do) anyway? Myself or them?"

posted March 19, 2007 08:19 PM         

wow. I love this thread.

thank you guys.

Deep within, beyond this carefully disguised anxiety attack, I'm observing/listening from the Stillness, lol.

BlueRoamer,
I was speaking of you. You only proved my point by trying to divert away from yourself. (you do that too!) But yes...how could I not recognize something so quiet, if not for straining my ear to hear my own and recognizing the reflection? Empathy makes one alert to subtleties.

posted March 19, 2007 08:26 PM         

quote:

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Please come play on my Fantastic World thread. I read somewhere that you are a "teacher".
Lia and Zala and Fayte pleeeeeeeeeease come play too! I have to beg you now in case you run off to other forums soon.

---

posted March 19, 2007 08:36 PM         

quote:

---

I often feel like there's an unspoken contest going on, who has the deepest most profound wisdom?

---

posted March 19, 2007 10:10 PM         

"Deep within, beyond this carefully disguised anxiety attack, I'm observing/listening from the Stillness, lol."

I know all too well exactly what you mean....

posted March 20, 2007 01:27 AM         

quote:

---

I often feel like there's an unspoken contest going on, who has the deepest most profound wisdom?

---

Fayte,

quote:

---

I prefer the messages and stories be known. Not me personally.
I would prefer to remain unknown and anonymous.
In fact I demand it be so. When I walk down the street, I want no one outside my small inner circle, to have a clue that I am a writer, or at the very least, have absolutely no clue to what I have written, nor the alias used.

---

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science.
Albert Einstein~

quote:

---

As a writer, I appreciate the value of the written word.
But evenso, I equally elate and glorify the unspoken realms that exist alongside. I like the freedom-- the gift of discovery there in those unspoken realms. So subtle they may be.
I witness, I watch. I wait.

---

------------------
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

posted March 20, 2007 04:56 AM         

quote:

---

I believe we should be willing to listen to the messages we need even in spite of the messenger many times. However, if that one person didn't get it across for you, someone or something else will as long as you're ready for it. There is really no need for judging a person, no matter what side of the fence you're on, but do shamelessly judge the truth of any message for yourself.

---

Amen.

I enjoyed reading your posts here, Eleanore. I'm going to keep an eye out for you from now on. I especially liked the above quote and what you said about playing music and studying musical theory.

I love that you are capable of imagining and considering multiple possibilities. It seems to me, most people just blurt out whatever cliche comes to mind first (usually it will be the one that supports their preconcieved view of the situation, and/or their own way of doing things), without taking time to consider the fact that a variety of cliches can appear to apply to any situation, but are not necessarily appropriate. My mind often comes up with half a dozen cliches/proverbs for any situation, before I even know what's happening, and then I use logic and intuition to systematically determine which is most likely to apply. I agree, intelligence is a liability almost as frequently as it is an asset.

I would like to suggest one possibility that I have not heard mentioned here. You reflected that, if everyone focused on their own progress, the world would be a better place. Maybe this is true. I would point out only two considerations. Firstly, that, often, the best way to learn and practice something is by attempting to teach it to others. This is also very likely to be the surest and quickest way to ensure that your views are challenged and tested from every concievable angle. Secondly, everyone's focus is more or less clear than everyone else's, and, if the people with the clearest focus did not commit themselves to teaching others, the world would decidedly be a much more f-ed up place. Realistically, the greatest fools are the last to examine themselves, and the first to go about trying to teach others. If those who are accustomed to examining themselves mercilessly did not share their findings, what would be shared?

"When the eagles are silent,
the parrots begin to jabber."
- Sir Winston Churchill

posted March 20, 2007 06:44 AM         

Okay,
I think I'm ready now to respond to your points.
Sorry, if I kept you waiting.

quote:

---

Sometimes the 3rd grader may make a mistake because he is shy, nervous, or simply too bored to concentrate on the problem at hand. What a person knows is not necessarily what they want to/are able to show to the rest of the world.

---

This is true. However, when the mistake is pointed out, if the third-grade does indeed know better, he/she will say, "Oh, right! That's what I meant to say. Sorry, I was just a bit nervous and distracted." If the third grader continues to make the same mistake over and over again, and not to recognize the mistakes when they are pointed out, then, chances are, they don't really know the math. If they are so distracted and anxious that it is impossible ever to call to mind what they allegedly know, and put it down on paper, then, do they really know it at all? Maybe they only think they do. Maybe the reason it slips away every time they try to catch hold of it, is because they don't really know what they think they know. I am always wary of the claims of knowledge made by those who can supply no clear reasons in support of them. You have made me reflect, though, that I may occassionally be mistakenly terming "ignorance" or "stupidity" that which really amounts to a persistent nervous distraction. If this is the case with anyone, I would recommend they seek immediate methods to relieve themselves of their nervous energies, before seeking to make their arguments.

quote:

---

Like Mirandee said :
No one can know the souls of others so there is no way of knowing who has reached higher levels of spirituality.....

---

As I see it, this is just another one of those widely circulated cliches that seems to bear little or no resemblence to what exists in the real world, and appears to be very popular among people whose perceptions are consistently being proven superficial. Remember, just because a person is consistently being proven wrong, does not mean that the truth is unknowable to everyone. It may be that they are just consistently hasty and superficial in their judgments.

quote:

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as long as we r in earth school, we r all in school. no one has graduated. we could argue that there are grades, but who decides the grades and on what basis?

---

A person who has mastered algebra can tell very quickly when another person has no grasp of it whatsoever. The way to tell is this: When you have progressed beyond a certain point, your perceptions do not merely contradict the perceptions of those who have not reached that point. Rather, they include them, and expand upon them. How is it that I can understand and accept all the arguments people use in support of "free will", and then make my case for determinism, not by contradicting their findings, but, by placing their findings within a larger context? And yet, people who support free will cannot even comprehend the arguments I use to refute it? Let me use the analogy of the outer planets. A person who is speaking Uranian truths is not ignorant of Saturnian ones. He/She has understood the logic of Saturn, before proceeding on to the discovery of those insights which transcends Saturn. I have always said that, if anyone is going to prove "free will" to me, they must first show to me that they understand my reasons for refuting it, and, then, they must show me the larger context in which my own reasons are transfigured so as not to refute "free will". The difference between what I have said and what others have said is this: When I am speak about Algebra, they seek to refute my testimony by telling me about Addition. When I slow down and try to explain Multiplication, again, they speak to me about Addition. If you have not understood my logic, how can you claim to have transcended it? But I have understood your logic. I can make your case at least as well as you can. And, only after having done that, can I spot its flaws. Does anyone get this?

quote:

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spiritual progress is not linear.

---

This is true in a sense, but it is misleading. Spiritual progress is spiralling. It is continually ascending, though it appears to veer off course. Nothing attained is ever lost, provided it is real. When we acquire knowledge of something, we acquire assumption along with it. At first, we cannot distinguish the assumption from the knowledge. When the assumption is removed, we appear to move backwards, but we are, in fact, still ascending, and the knowledge is never lost.

quote:

---

of course there will always be people more intelligent than others, wiser than others, more compassionate than others, more patient than others....the list is loooong. which qualities do u pick (and in what order of importance) in the contest for spirituality ? (like fayte put it so aptly)

---

Well said. I don't know. But I know that, when a person has something to teach me, it does not contradict what I have to teach. Just as, when I have something to teach them, it does not contradict what they have to teach. History does not contradict Mathematics. It is only when they try to use Mathematics to refute History (just as they tried to use Addition to refute Algebra) that I know they have overstepped the boundaries of their specialty.

quote:

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and then again who is to say that pride is wrong? or humility? which is preferable? perhaps it is best to have both in some measure??

---

Exactly. I would say that it is a great thing to have pride in one's accomplishments, but not in one's self, in the sense that one identifies with one's accomplishments. In other words, we ought to remember the message at all times, and only speak highly of oneself as a means of drawing attention to one's message.

quote:

---

Is truth the only thing that matters? or is it important how and when it is said?

---

When falsehood is being discussed is always the best time to speak the truth. And, yes, how it is said is important too. What is most important about how it is said, is that it is not distorted for the sake of making it palatable. It is better to offend everyone with the truth, and have one's words dismissed, than to please everyone with a lie and have one's words accepted.

quote:

---

Is one person's 'truth' the same as another person's 'truth'?

---

There are things which are true for me, and not true for you, and things which are true for you, and not for me. And then there are things which are objectively true, or, if not "objective" in the strictest sense, then, at least, true for all of us. A subjective truth would be, "Mozart's music makes me sick." If one tried to make of this an abstract truth, and said, "Mozart's music stinks," or, "Whoever likes Mozart has deplorable taste," that would be false. On the other hand, it would be abstract and objective, to say that, "Whether or not Mozart's music excites a pleasurable response, is dependent on the taste of the listener." Whether the listener's taste is good or bad is unknowable. If I may be permitted to make the analogy more suitable to the question of free will, a conversation about Mozart might go something like this:

A: "Mozart's pieces are all no more than 30 seconds long."

B: "Dude, do you always stop listening after 30 seconds?"

A: "Yes."

B: "Dude, there is more music, you need to keep listening."

A: "I don't think so. Whenever I stop listening, the music stops."

B: "Dude, the music doesn't stop just because you stop listening."

A: "Prove it."

B: "Listen to this..."

(B plays Mozart for A.
A places hands over ears after 30 seconds.)

B: Did you hear it?

A: Nope.

B: Did you listen for more than 30 seconds?

A: How could I? The music stopped when I covered my ears.

B: Listen again. This time, don't cover your ears.

A: You're arrogant. Stop pushing.

B: Please, just listen once more?

A: I already did.
I've made up my mind.
Please respect my opinion.
All Mozart's pieces are only 30 seconds long.

B: But you only listened for 30 seconds!
Here, I'm going to play it one more time.

A: Help!! Help!!
I'm being forced against my will!!

Such is the conversation between a person who sees the choices of a man, but continues looking long enough to see the motives of those choices, and a person who sees the choices of a man, and closes his/her eyes when the motives are discussed. "Determinism," says the first. "Free will," says the second.

Why do I bother, lol.

posted March 20, 2007 07:15 AM         

******

Thank you for your kind words, guys and gals. I'm not very comfortable with posting my full birth data but I'll give you the "top 3" ... Sag Sun, Aries Moon, Aquarius Rising. Sorry about that. I'll try to be more accommodating if anyone wants a bit more info. And, yes, I feel very silly right now.

******

Heart--Shaped Cross

Perhaps it will seem too dictional an effort but I'd say that the best way to learn and practice is not to attempt to teach so much as it is to share. (More important is to live your truths but that point is not being discussed at present.) Putting yourself* in a didactic position from the start lessens your chances of learning from the other person(s) on an equal footing. Our life is really a large educational experience if we allow it to be such, however, we are to be both students and teachers simultaneously. Our views can be challenged and tested without presenting ourselves as authority figures. In truth, you are likely to be challenged and tested more fervently by your peers without the authority of "teacher" behind your words.

My concern is mostly for the elitist sentiment that has inevitably plagued religion/philosophy. It creeps into one's psyche almost unawares and transmutes confidence into arrogance, understanding into impatience, compassion into disdain and serves only to further the illusion of separateness between us ... ie, one is inferior or superior as a person instead of simply being inferior or superior at some skill or some understanding. We cannot allow ourselves to regard others as being worth less or worth more than ourselves. Our value is the same though our appearances and abilities are quite different. 2x2=4 yet so does 20-16. Two very different equations/expressions but of the same ultimate value. Perhaps a better number would be 0 but there it is.

We are all truly One. Call it what you will but there is that thread of divinity/essence/force that unites us all, "saints" and "sinners" alike. Lose sight of that in your relations with others and spiritual fellowship is lost as well. That loss is most unfortunate because Unity of Being is one of the greatest truths we have to learn and practice and, even in this late age, we are still unable to do so regularly and en masse.

Also, I never said one shouldn't share. I am all about sharing. Have courage in your convictions and present them for debate if you'd like. I would suggest, however, to remain open to the idea that the person(s) with whom you are sharing may likely know more than you suspect and would be able to illimunate you in turn. It's not about titles or positions, imo, but about bringing to fruition all the spiritual labors wo/mankind has so long struggled to achieve. Light and Love.

posted March 20, 2007 08:27 AM         

Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough reply. I never meant to give the impression that I am not open to learning from others. I really have claimed to know very little. I am still a student in many areas. I do think there is at least one thing I have completely understood, though, and I do not think it is arrogant or impolite to say so. I have said that my comprehension in this area is superior. I have never said that I believed myself inherently superior, - though, its true, if you only read other people's posts, you will find me frequently accused of having done so, and, occassionally, summarily judged and dimissed as unworthy of their time, without being given so much as an opportunity to explain myself.

In the past, I have tried to be gentle with people in my attempts to elicit their best. I have only succeeded in inspiring casual, superficial responses this way. On the other hand, I find that people seem to flock to prove me wrong when I set myself up as an authority on something. It seems, the more cocky I allow myself to appear, the more likely they are to bring their "A" game. It's unfortuneate, but its true.

I think impatience serves a purpose. Give people enough of your patience and they will hang you both with it. Provoke them, and they might just be motivated to pick up the pace. How do we progress on the path? By fostering as much complacency as we can muster? Or, by getting a little impatient with ourselves and others, from time to time, and thereby keeping things moving? Some people need a little encouragement, - no, not the kind of encouragement that fluffs their pillows for them.

The same with disdain. Nobody ever got anywhere by being content with their current location. Only by seeing our shortcomings, and not accepting them, are we encouraged to surpass ourselves. People think I am so self-satisfied, when they hear me compare my understanding with the understanding of the masses. They don't realize that, unlike the masses, I fix my gaze mostly on those whose understanding greatly surpasses my own. Just because I am not humbled in the face of the derivative and short-sighted philosophies of an everyman, does not mean I am incapable of humility. When I sense the beginnings of arrogance in myself, the first thing I do is think about Rumi and Shakespeare. Is it exalting myself to compare myself to the likes of them, or is it humbling? It sure feels humbling.

Are we all equal? This is a touchy one, indeed. In fact, most people won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. But, I'm not most people. It seems to me I was born to think and say what others won't dare. So, let me ask you this: When the ship is sinking, and you've got to jettison ballast, and the only thing left is people, do you toss the Captain over the side first, so everyone can drown? Or do you toss the 300lb, violent-natured, dime-a-dozen man-child who scarcely ever contributed anything but loud-mouthed, derivative opinions, and his talents for beating children, raping women, watching Jerry Springer, and submitting himself with pride to a job as meaningless as making "sporks"? It might land me in an ocean of hot water, but, I'll still be the first to admit that equality is a crock of politically correct bullsh!t. You may think this comes from a place of ego, but I think it comes from a willingness to perceive the inequality of egos, despite the equality of souls. They say, "Judge not lest ye be judged,". Well, I am willing to be judged by the standards I judge by. If it comes down to me and the Captain or the First Mate, I'll gladly jump ship before I'll argue about equality, and insist on drawing straws.

Love and Light,
HSC

posted March 20, 2007 08:38 AM         

Then the question becomes...who qualifies and by what/whose criteria?

What is the proof of the proof?

You can only truly ever be superior to yourself from yesterday.

All other measures are merely in your mind.

Be very careful with that word.

posted March 20, 2007 09:22 AM         

"No man can see 'over his own height.'...
You cannot see in another man any more than you have in yourself; and your own intelligence strictly determines the extent to which he comes within its grasp. If your intelligence is of a very low order, mental qualities in another, even though they be of the highest kind, will have no effect at all upon you; you will see nothing in their possessor except the meanest side of his individuality -- in other words, just those parts of his character and disposition which are weak and defective. Your whole estimate of the man will be confined to his defects, and his higher mental qualities will no more exist for you than colors exist for those who cannot see.

"Intellect is invisible to the man who has none. In any attempt to criticize another's work, the range of knowledge possessed by the critic is as essential a part of his verdict as the claims of the work itself.

"Hence, intercourse with others involves a process of levelling-down. The qualities which are present in one man and absent in another cannot come into play when they meet; and the self-sacrifice which this entails upon one of the parties calls forth no recognition from the other.

"Consider how sordid, how stupid, in a word, how vulgar most men are, and you will see that it is impossible to talk to them without becoming vulgar yourself for the time being... You will then fully appreciate the truth and propriety of the expression, "to make yourself cheap"; and you will be glad to avoid the society of people whose only possible point of contact with you is just that part of your nature of which you have least reason to be proud. So you will see that, in dealing with fools and blockheads, there is only one way of showing your intelligence -- by having nothing to do with them. That means, of course, that when you go into society, you may now and then feel like a good dancer who gets an invitation to a ball, and, on arriving, finds that everyone is lame with whom he is to dance."

posted March 20, 2007 09:40 AM         

"But it is just as easy to flatter and win them over; and this is why their judgment is usually corrupt, and why their opinions are swayed, not by what is really true and right, but by the favor of the party or class to which they belong. And the ultimate reason of it all is that, in such people, force of will greatly predominates over knowledge; and, hence, their meager intellect is wholly given over to the service of the will, and can never free itself from that service for a moment."