posted March 19, 2007 07:24 AM         

Has jwhop really ever said "[username] is a brain dead leftist moron?" Or is it just a general "those" BDLM's? If you're really not brain dead or a moron then I don't think he's talking about you, even if you are a "leftist". Just my opinion. There are other insults or negative opinions that people toss at some members specifically which are, imo, worse than that.

In the end it comes down to not knowing what is offensive enough, I suppose. Many people take far more offense to a comment than I ever would. Should everyone keep their opinions to themselves so as to never offend one of these people? Or should these people learn to not take things so personally? Serious questions here and I don't have the answers. Part of the problem is that so many people communicate lazily on-line. You'd never turn in a paper at work or school as poorly written as some of what is posted here ... or at least I hope you wouldn't. As the atmosphere is thankfully much more relaxed here than at work or school, though, misunderstandings, quick tempered replies and even insults abound. Who holds the yardstick for what constitutes something as acceptably insulting and something that is far too offensively insulting on this board? (*cough* Randall *cough*) And even if/when those measurements are clearly outlined someone is bound to complain that there are too many restrictions on speech or that there aren't enough restrictions on speech here. You just can't please everybody.

posted March 19, 2007 08:37 AM         

quote:

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Often, the things we find most judgmental, are merely the most threatening to our illusions and prejudices. We frequently evoke the lofty names of virtues, to defend what amounts to our egos. We say, "Love is everything", but what we are really saying is, "It hurts my ego to be told I am wrong, therefor, any attempt to tell me I am wrong is devoid of love for me". It's exactly the same as when an instructor tries to correct a child, and the child says, "You don't love me!!" To be a good instructor is not to back down just because the child feels unloved. Be gentle, but be firm, even if your gentleness is overlooked, and your firmness is called "intolerance". Someday they'll thank you.

---

Errr, I agree that some people's views can be destructive.....when they are shoved down people's throats, and enforced (see:Hitler). But what about things such as religion, or even mere things like interpetation of an astrological aspect? I think people have the right to believe these things and voice their opinion...as long as they don't try to shove anything down other people's throats.

The teacher-child thing is A totally different thing from say.....like A Jew and a Christian interacting with one another. Its shouldn't even be used as an example. Because in the former situation, one obviously knows that the other is making a mistake and is therefore wrong. In the latter situation, no one really knows who's right and who's wrong because they are holding "beliefs", not definite facts. I wouldn't go preaching to a Jew tommorow about Jesus Christ...that would be absurd. Although I don't want to sound like I'm right and they're wrong but I'll put it this way: if they come to believe in Jesus tommorow then good for them. But only because they came into it on their own and not because of any force-feeding. In the meantime, we are all free to believe what we want to believe because none of us will know what the definite truth is until we die and go...wherever. But again, we are free to speculate about what the "truth" of the matter is and hold beliefs about what it is,I guess??? (Sorry, I can't word myself better)

posted March 19, 2007 11:48 AM         

Then just forgive me for not being you and seeing and thinking as you do.

That does not make my beliefs any less profound and meaningful to me as your beliefs are to you. Nor does it mean that I just suspect these things that I believe to be true. In fact, from experience along with knowledge I KNOW these things to be true.

I happen to think that you are wrong about many things you have said on the threads here at LL. How do you like them apples? How do you like being told that you are wrong? I never come out and tell you that you are wrong because you are young and still have a lot of learning and growing to do.

Come back when you are in your mid 40's and if you still think and believe along the same lines as you do now about everything then all I can say is that it has more to do with control and just plain stubborness than it has to do with intelligence or seeking what truth you can find in life.

Change and growth is more a sign of intelligence and being on the right path to truth than anything else in life.

posted March 19, 2007 02:50 PM         

"the atmosphere is thankfully much more relaxed here than at work or school" Amen to THAT! Eleanore, you have a serious earth vibe with a tone very similar to Steve. You both speak firmly and I enjoy your style even when I might disagree with a minor point, simply because you are so confident and practical.

posted March 19, 2007 02:55 PM         

BEHOLD! FOR I HAVE FOUND THIS KEY!

He knows Everyone needs the key, but people who haven't picked up the keys leading up to his key don't see his key as important and a gift from God, they just see it as the ramblings of a whacko "prophet". Because channelling such extreme Force through a human vessel can throw a person off balance from time to time, it is easy for the crowd to find "proof" of their opinion if that is what they are intent on believing. (Not that you feel or think any of this Dulce, just talking overall.) So his key may be disregarded and because he Knows What he received, it saddens him. He knows the world could be a better place if only people listened and he is noble enough to take all sorts of criticism and abuse to help people SEE.
My style is different. I just laugh, pat people on the back, and slip a key into their pocket when they are not looking. If someone catches me trying to slip one into their pocket I am generally moved to say something "Flakey" to throw off pursuit.

"In fact, from experience along with knowledge I KNOW these things to be true." ~Mirandee

I am very positive that Mirandee has keys that Steve does NOT have, and I am equally positive that Steve has keys Mirandee does NOT have. And THAT is the TRUTH.

(I have THAT key, you see...)

(Would you like it? It's a lovely rainbow color...)

posted March 19, 2007 04:02 PM         

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time for every purpose, under heaven

A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
A time to laugh, a time to weep

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time for every purpose, under heaven

A time to build up,a time to break down
A time to dance, a time to mourn
A time to cast away stones, a time to gather stones together

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time for every purpose, under heaven

A time of love, a time of hate
A time of war, a time of peace
A time you may embrace, a time to refrain from embracing

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time for every purpose, under heaven

posted March 19, 2007 05:43 PM         

quote:

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But the Truth is the strain of purity that is the same in All "religions" since Religion is not God (perfection), but is merely an institute of man. Therefore both of the people/beliefs in your example would be "wrong" (but wrong is a silly word, because they are just missing a "key") and I say that with complete confidence as it is not just my "belief", it is just the Way it Is. (I have that key.)

---

Oyyyy, I really don't want to get into another religious talk but I will disagree with the fact that any religion is wrong becuase being based on "beliefs"...they are not. Sidetracking a bit, if you study any of the major ones closely; they're all based around similar things. They ask similar questions, and have come up with similar answers. I will agree that mistakes have been made by the people at the top of some religious institutions in the past...but that is all. I don't think that religion is for everyone but it has done a good job of bringing order,stability, and a common sense of what is right and wrong to different groups in the pasts. Looking back into history, alot of religions have popped up in times of turmoil and done just what I mentioned previously.

quote:

---

He knows Everyone needs the key, but people who haven't picked up the keys leading up to his key don't see his key as important and a gift from God, they just see it as the ramblings of an whacko "prophet". Because channelling such extreme Force through a human vessel can throw a person off balance from time to time, it is easy for the crowd to find "proof" of their opinion if that is what they are intent on believing. (Not that you feel or think any of this Dulce, just talking overall.) So his key may be disregarded and because he Knows What he received, it saddens him. He knows the world could be a better place if only people listened and he is noble enough to take all sorts of criticism and abuse to help people SEE.
My style is different. I just laugh, pat people on the back, and slip a key into their pocket when they are not looking. If someone catches me trying to slip one into their pocket I am generally moved to say something "Flakey" to throw off pursuit.

---

Hmmm, but how does he know that his "key" is any better than anyone else's "key"? That's what I was trying to get at in my former post. Frankly, I am not sure that he has 'The Key'. Sure, he may have his own "Key", but I don't know about "The Key".*edited to add* I won't say that HSC or anyone else have not found their own "truths", I just don't believe in force-feeding people beliefs,info,etc. while telling them what they believe is an "illusion" which is just a sugary way of telling them they're flat out wrong.

posted March 19, 2007 11:36 PM         

quote:

---

am very positive that Mirandee has keys that Steve does NOT have, and I am equally positive that Steve has keys Mirandee does NOT have. And THAT is the TRUTH.

---

I fully agree with that TRUTH, MM And that applies to all of us. We all have something to offer, we all have a piece of the puzzle to add which makes us all prophets. That is why being a good listener is even more important than being a good talker.

The identifying of gifts brings to the fore [a] large issue in our lives - the issue of commitment. Somehow if I name my gift and it is confirmed, I cannot "hang loose" in the same way. I would much rather be committed to God in the abstract than be committed to [God] at the point of my gifts.

- Elizabeth O'Connor, from "Eighth Day of Creation"

Those who would learn to serve must first learn to think little of themselves...Only those who live by the forgiveness of their sin in Jesus Christ will think little of themselves in the right way. They will know that their own wisdom completely came to an end when Christ forgave them.
- Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted.
- Martin Luther King Jr.

posted March 19, 2007 11:53 PM         

quote:

---

am very positive that Mirandee has keys that Steve does NOT have, and I am equally positive that Steve has keys Mirandee does NOT have. And THAT is the TRUTH.

---

posted March 20, 2007 01:31 AM         

Mirandee, thanks for listening Interesting quote by MLK.

posted March 20, 2007 01:50 AM         

I have said this many times, and I will continue to repeat it tirelessly, in spite of, and because of, persistent assumptions, misunderstandings, and opposition:

I do not claim to know anything about religion, per say. What I claim to KNOW, for certain, is metaphysical, and can be summed up in the philosophy of Absolute Determinism.

I realize that, for many people, the issue of "free will" is a religious one, founded on faith, - in fact, since it is a false doctrine, it really can't be founded on anything else, lol, - and that, for this reason, people assume that, for me, it is also a religious question, and a matter of faith. It is not. It is purely metaphysical. It is scientifically and rationally demonstrable. I am not one of the people who continues to debate this point on religious grounds, so, it is rather ironic to be told, time and again, that I am the one trying to argue a matter of faith. If people wish to accept "free will" as an article of faith, let them do so only after they have admitted that it is directly contradicted by science and logic. If you can admit that you are directly contradicting logic, reason, and empirical evidence, in favor of blind faith, I will cease to challenge you. My only arguments are based on logic and direct observation of the motives of people and the operations of the physical world. If you wish to refute my arguments, you must either refute them on the basis of logic and observation, or you must refute logic and observation themselves. Only then will it be a matter of faith.

I have spoken of Jesus, and I have interpreted his words in accordance with my understanding of Determinism. Can I prove that this is how he (or the writers of the gospels) intended his words to be interpreted? No, I cannot. This, for me, is, I admit, a matter of faith (or, I would prefer to say, suspicion), based on nothing more than a series of hundreds and hundreds of corroborating clues, which may or may not be anything more than a series of utterly remarkable coincidences. When I interpet his sayings in this way, I find that they make sense, that they agree with each other (rather than contradicting each other, or having no perceivable relation whatsoever), and that they increase my insight into human nature, and the nature of the universe as a whole.

It is not necessary to site scripture, or to frame my arguments in a scriptural context, in order to make my point. I site the words of Jesus the same as I site the words of other philosophers and sages, with the exception that I find the words of Jesus deeply more insightful and satisfying to my poetic sensibility. Christian Symbolism provides me with an entire system of related myths and archetypes, with which to frame my personal philosophy. So far, the deeper I look into Christian Symbolism, the less discrepancies I find, and the more correspondences I find, with my own philosophical understanding of the world. If it turns out that I am misinterpreting scripture, it would be pretty spooky indeed, for it would mean that scripture, while having not been composed for the sole purpose of supporting and clarifying my views, just happens to be capable of appearing to support and clarify them, time and time and time again, while appearing to contradict views which it is, in fact, intended to support and clarify.

posted March 20, 2007 03:52 AM         

quote:

---

Then just forgive me for not being you and seeing and thinking as you do.

---

I have not blamed you, so there is no need to forgive you. I do not accept the logic of blame or forgiveness. I see only misunderstanding and understanding. I cannot "forgive" you for misunderstanding, I can only accept you for it. And I have already accepted you for it. I accept you as you are, but that does not mean, as you seem to suggest, that I must leave you where you are. I have not merely called out to you from the mountain, or come down to meet you half-way. I have made every effort to meet you where you are, before pointing out to you the direction of the truth.

I have not denied your point of view, though it may appear that way to you. I have tried to show you that what I am denying is not anything which you have seen, but, the assumptions and illusions you have formed to explain what you have seen. Just as Christ did not wish to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, I do not wish to invalidate your perspective, but, to expand upon it. The only thing I invalidate, are the limits you have accepted, and the assumptions (or "beliefs") you have projected beyond those limits. I do not deny the mountains you see surrounding you, but, I deny the validity of your assumption that there is nothing beyond the mountains, or that, if there is anything, it cannot be known. I agree only that it cannot be known from your point of view. But I have been to the tops of those mountains, and I entreat you to use your reason and your legs to follow me up any one of them, and see what lies beyond.

Beyond the choices you see people making, there are conscious motives, and out beyond the conscious motives you see, there are environmental factors and unconscious motives. As I see it, the existence of an unconscious mind positively disproves the existence of a free will. I would like you to tell me how a person who is not in any position to choose (or even percieve) the motives behind their choices, and who cannot perceive the end results of their choices, can possibly be called "free".

quote:

---

That does not make my beliefs any less profound and meaningful to me as your beliefs are to you.

---

Agreed. What makes your beliefs less profound is not that they conflict with my knowledge, but, that they are founded on fantasy, and not substance. What makes them less meaningful is that they encourage you to take things at face value, rather than inquire into the nature of things. The "profound" comfort you derive from your beliefs is like the comfort a person feels when he sits "peacefully" (i.e. complacently) at home, and reassures himself that there is no need to concern himself with the outer world. Your peace is the peace of the sleeper, not the peace of the sage. Until you reach the peace of the sage, all lesser peace will be used to passify your noblest aspirations the instant they become such as to require any effort from you to transform your perspective. If you want to see in all directions, Mirandee, you must be willing to turn your head.

quote:

---

Nor does it mean that I just suspect these things that I believe to be true. In fact, from experience along with knowledge I KNOW these things to be true.

---

ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"At last,
the ass appeared on stage,
bold and most brave."
Ah, Mirandee, honesty, at last!
I could KISS you!

quote:

---

I happen to think that you are wrong about many things you have said on the threads here at LL. How do you like them apples? How do you like being told that you are wrong?

---

LOL! I can take it. For one thing, I know I am right, so, it doesn't threaten me a bit. And, honestly, I'm just so happy you are finally getting real with me, I don't even know what to do with myself. I am glowing! It's just too bad your motive seems to be to hurt me. But, hey, I'm not one to look a gift-horse in the mouth.

It's funny,... while I have voiced no moral objection to saying I am right, you have voiced yours with great passion. And yet, here you are, still holding it against me for admitting it, and now admitting it yourself. I'm not saying you are a hippocrite...

quote:

---

I never come out and tell you that you are wrong because you are young and still have a lot of learning and growing to do.

---

And I suppose you have no desire to assist in that learning and growing, by sharing the fact that you are utterly convinced, and the reasons for your conviction? The truth is, Mirandee, you strike me as pretty young yourself, whereas I've always known I was a very old soul. The difference here is that I want you to know that I am not just speculating when I open my mouth. I am speaking truth, and I have indisputable proof, for those with with ears to hear. Can I ask you a question? Is there any air in your chart at all?

quote:

---

Come back when you are in your mid 40's and if you still think and believe along the same lines as you do now about everything then all I can say is that it has more to do with control and just plain stubborness than it has to do with intelligence or seeking what truth you can find in life.

---

That is your assumption. If what I am thinking is true (and it is), then age will only deepen my understanding and conviction. This is funny to me, because the vast majority of my ideas have probably gone through more revisions and fine-tunings than the ideas of anyone I have ever met. While most people just go around parrotting whichever cliche pops into their head, regardless of whether it is true for a particular situation, I spend my life thinking up multiple possible cliches for any situation, and systematically determining which one truly applies. My intellectual life is so vital and dynamic, I barely have time for anything else!! The one thing that has stood the test of time is my conviction in Determinism. And I will bet my soul, that, when the dust settles, much of what you call your "knowledge" will be buried underneath it, and much of what I call my knowledge will be dancing merrily on the grave.

quote:

---

Change and growth is more a sign of intelligence and being on the right path to truth than anything else in life.

---

Agreed.
The question is,
who needs this advice more right now?
Me or you?

posted March 20, 2007 09:59 AM         

quote:

---

I realize that, for many people, the issue of "free will" is a religious one, founded on faith, - in fact, since it is a false doctrine, it really can't be founded on anything else, lol, - and that, for this reason, people assume that, for me, it is also a religious question, and a matter of faith. It is not. It is purely metaphysical. It is scientifically and rationally demonstrable. I am not one of the people who continues to debate this point on religious grounds, so, it is rather ironic to be told, time and again, that I am the one trying to argue a matter of faith. If people wish to accept "free will" as an article of faith, let them do so only after they have admitted that it is directly contradicted by science and logic. If you can admit that you are directly contradicting logic, reason, and empirical evidence, in favor of blind faith, I will cease to challenge you. My only arguments are based on logic and direct observation of the motives of people and the operations of the physical world. If you wish to refute my arguments, you must either refute them on the basis of logic and observation, or you must refute logic and observation themselves. Only then will it be a matter of faith.

---

Firstly, I never said you were arguing that based on faith. Secondly, why do you assume I am arguing the opposite based on faith? Yes, it is true that I believe God gave us free will because he wanted it so that we would follow him of our own will and out of love as opposed to force/fear. But that is not the only reason I believe in free will.

Logically, the idea of absolute determinism is iffy to me because if we subscribe to that kind of logic; normally functioning people are no longer responsible for their own actions. We can say, that that person is no longer responsible for theft, this one is not responsible for murder...and so on..because it was all pre-determined anyways. You are also insisting that what is happening in Darfur was already determined for them....and the instability in Iraq was determined for those people too. None of the offenders in both of those cases can really be held responsible. That's why I can't except that theory....and that is all I will say.

quote:

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do not claim to know anything about religion, per say. What I claim to KNOW, for certain, is metaphysical, and can be summed up in the philosophy of Absolute Determinism

---

posted March 20, 2007 10:35 AM         

Can I not express my views without you assuming that I am contradicting your own, or that I believe I am contradicting your own? You know, not every time I make a statement am I assuming that you would state the opposite. I adressed my post to you and everyone else. And even if I had adressed it only to you, that would be no reason to conclude that I think you disagree with everything I say.

Your arguments against Determinism are all emotional in nature, and have nothing to do with whether or not it is a rational proposition. All you are saying is that it offends you to think of certain people as innocent. That is no reason to convict them of guilt. Atrocities are commited by ignorant and ill-constituted people. These are not strengths, but weaknesses; they are not signs of health, but signs of sickness. You wish to blame people for being weak and sick, because you can only see the consequences of their actions. Suppose an ignorant child poured acid on a kitten. Would you deny that the child is innocent simply because the harm done to the kitten is so offending? Or would you, could you, find it in you to forgive the child, and understand that he did not know what he was doing? It is the same with "bad" men. Just as the child lacks knowledge, the "bad" man lacks a conscience. Shall he be deemed responsible for that which he lacks and cannot see the value of acquiring?

Who is more unreasonable:
The man who possesses no respect for human life,
Or the man who, knowing this,
still expects to receive it from him?

posted March 20, 2007 12:21 PM         

quote:

---

You wish to blame people for being weak and sick, because you can only see the consequences of their actions. Suppose an ignorant child poured acid on a kitten. Would you deny that the child is innocent simply because the harm done to the kitten is so offending? Or would you, could you, find it in you to forgive the child, and understand that he did not know what he was doing? It is the same with "bad" men. Just as the child lacks knowledge, the "bad" man lacks a conscience. Shall he be deemed responsible for that which he lacks and cannot see the value of acquiring?

---

So now you are comparing WELL FUNCTIONING ADULTS who should know better, to a child who does not?? That is the most illogical argument I have ever heard. And yes, it DOES offend me to know that you are taking away responsiblity from people like the offenders I've mentioned above. And yes, it is mostly because of the consequences of their actions (they cause pain and suffering). I'm not saying that these people cannot be forgiven, but in order for them to be forgiven they must FIRST and FOREMOST take responsiblity for their actions. And if they don't take responsiblity according to you, then won't have anything that they would need to be forgiven for. But that's not even my point, my point is that we are free to make our own decisions. And yes, I will admit there are ethical limits to that freedom and obviously for good reason. But notice how those limits are crossed (hence all the criminals we have in the world)....further proving that "Free Will" exists.

*EDIT*

quote:

---

Can I not express my views without you assuming that I am contradicting your own, or that I believe I am contradicting your own? You know, not every time I make a statement am I assuming that you would state the opposite. I adressed my post to you and everyone else. And even if I had adressed it only to you, that would be no reason to conclude that I think you disagree with everything I say.

---

Well excuse me, but my name is the only one mentioned in your post so I'm going to assume you are primarily addressing me. If you want to make it more collective then next time just say "everyone" as opposed to "Dulce and others" .

posted March 20, 2007 12:27 PM         

Free Wi11, is the gift given to US
by GOD...

we can choose to live and know God
and know the Universal Laws..do the
right thing...

or, we can choose to do the wrong thing..
and turn away from GOD. ...

that is Free Wi11...

posted March 20, 2007 04:36 PM         

Is that what you call murderers and thieves?

Oi vey!

posted March 20, 2007 05:04 PM         

we always had the Free Wi11 choice to
obey the God Laws...

or what we did...

turned our Backs
and made up our own...

we used free wi11
to do this...

God does not make you obey, it's your choice...