posted June 09, 2007 11:28 PM         

victim role zala

posted June 09, 2007 11:29 PM         

quote:

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I find it a challenge to be the kind of mother I would like to be almost every day. I think my child is the answer to my prayers... asking God for patience... etc. Always showing me how far I have to go.

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That sentiment is very familiar to me. They could be my own thoughts. Having children has been the best thing that ever happened to me, because it forced me to grow in ways I never would have had to, without the impetus of not wanting to repeat certain behaviours. I could have continued to be in the dark and unaware of my feelings and thoughts.

I know what you mean about Pixie and Zala. They are indeed everything you said. I think very highly of them.

Don't worry I am not offended, I was hoping to continue the discussion.

Peace.

posted June 09, 2007 11:30 PM         

Sometimes the even-tempered and courteous posters get overlooked in the tumult.
My apologies for that.

Your story is intense.

"Equitable" is a good recommendation, as it seems to imply the dual qualities of awareness and compassion. In order to be equitable, or fair, - truly, objectively fair, - one would have to be both highly intelligent and deeply compassionate. I agree, if I had said "equitable", or even "ethical", it might have made my view a bit more easily digestible, although, it seems, what people are objecting to, even more than the perceived insult of being found "selfish" or "unintelligent", is the fact that I am saying this is absolutely true. That, I think, cannot be helped. But, as I need all the help I can get, "equitable" it is.

I did not know how hard it is to adopt. That is news to me, and it makes my heart sad to hear. But it does not alter my conviction that a relatively highly evolved being, in possession of both objectivity and impersonal compassion, would do what it takes to adopt, if they were determined to raise a child. Regardless of the circumstances, an evolved person would not choose to bring another soul through just to satisfy their personal desires and biological urges. He/she would not be thinking about what is "cheaper" or easier.

HSC

posted June 09, 2007 11:38 PM         

quote:

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Regardless of the circumstances, an evolved person would not choose to bring another soul through just to satisfy their personal desires and biological urges. He/she would not be thinking about what is "cheaper" or easier.

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I just wanted to illustrate the tragedy of the adoption scene, and why couples might decide to make one instead of adopt. Not everyone would take spiritual evolution into consideration when making this decision.

In the end we decided to be content with the three beautiful, healthy, and intelligent beings we already have the priviledge to know and guide. I am so grateful for the opportunity to know these wonderful people, and that I am their mother. They teach me.

posted June 09, 2007 11:47 PM         

quote:

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I can be emotionally stupid and insensitive

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I think that's just part of the human spectrum of emotion. I can too.

It was very hard. After I got some emotional distance after time went by, it was one of the most gratifying things I have ever done. I made a family, because I made a hard choice. That's pretty awesome in and of itself. In the end it was the right thing to do, because they have been able to do things for him that I never would have been able to do, as a single mom. He was diagnosed with high level autism at age 3, and they've been able to give him therapists, and take him to specialists. Something that may have been beyond my reach.

I think part of the problem is as you say, people like babies. It touches us in a deeply biological way, we want to protect and care for babies, no matter what species they might be. It's harder to gain the trust of an older child who's had a hard life, and been in the foster system. Lots of tests by the child for the foster parents.

posted June 10, 2007 12:09 AM         

As far as I'm concerned, those of you who fit that description should be thanking God that Steve even bothers to speak to you. My personal belief is that you do your best to send loving energy to stop it from turning cancerous, but once it turns to cancer you hack it off before it spreads.

posted June 10, 2007 12:24 AM         

I was talking to my mother about families and adoptive families earlier today. Our placement really is "meant to be" on the big stuff, and the little stuff brings about the big stuff, so on a close examination and study of all of the intricate details the theory that it is all pre-determined is not far-fetched.

posted June 10, 2007 12:41 AM         

I've noted your reply, and will try to respond at some point -- but it's late, I'm tired and I have a lot to do tomorrow.....

posted June 10, 2007 01:38 AM         

I'm saddened to see that there are still people walking around with delusions grandeur (Hey look everyone, I'm a prophet, now prostrate before my magnificence! ) Ok, maybe I'm not saddened but a little annoyed.

Ok, maybe what annoys me most is people are just accepting the "over-population" myth before looking into other possibilities as to why there may be a whole generation of orphans around the world (poverty,the AIDS pandemic,etc.). And what also annoys me is that suddenly there is only ONE "intelligent" choice; the one way to go because its something that I thought of.

But if I go even further HSC, I don't believe that you even believe a word you're preaching. For this reason, I have to go back to the original argument which was that "trade-off" thing with PixelPixie. My intuition tells me that this entire time, you've only been saying what you've been saying to back up your original argument with her just for the sake of being right. Why? Because I've heard little [from you] to back up your claim, but much more compelling arguments to de-bunk it (that you conveniently skip over).

posted June 10, 2007 01:50 AM         

You speak of a "higher love." By that I take it that you mean agape. That is the highest form of love. That is the love that God possesses. Few human beings ever reach that form of love. If they should strive for agape where do you assume it begins?

I think it begins with the lesser types of love, the love between a man and woman, the love between friends and family. The love we have for our children. In order to ever acheive agape love we mere human beings have to first learn and know the lesser types of love.

It is as Pix and some others have stated here on this thread, people do not have children out of a biological urge. They conceive children out of the expression of their love for their partner. I don't think any woman or man during passionate lovemaking are ever thinking of children. I know I wasn't and I got three of them. Having children together is not the first thought when a man and woman meet and fall in love either.

These women cannot explain to you what it feels like to carry a child inside of you and feel that child move about, they can't describe the bond that develops between mother and baby in the womb. That can't describe the worry when that baby doesn't move as much as it normally does or decides to remain still in the womb for a day. They can't describe what it feels like the first time they hold that baby after birth. A father can't really describe that feeling of holding his child for the first time either.

You speak of selfish love. There is nothing about having children that teaches you selfish love. In fact if you want to learn what agape love is, which is completely unselfish, totally giving, unconditional love that gives without expecting anything in return, there is nothing like having a child to teach us that.

GG, I am glad that you explained how very diffcult it is to adopt a child. That was my first thought when I read HSC's remarks about adoption. There are many loving and caring people in the world, many of those with children of their own, who would like to adopt a child but can't get past all the red tape and who don't have the money required. Thank you for enlightening HSC about that.

I want to flippantly say that we don't have to worry about children not being adopted anyway because between them Angelina Joline and Madonna are adopting them all. Though it is not a subject to joke about I just couldn't resist it. However it does go with what GG and Zala mentioned. For us mere " rabble" ( got a laugh out of that Zala hee hee ) it is very difficult to adopt. If you are rich or famous or both it is easy and you can have nannies raise the kids for you.

Children are a lot of work, a lot of worry, but they are a true blessing in that they teach us so much. We learn so much about ourselves and about love and unselfishness from children. They are a sheer joy. Always making you laugh.

posted June 10, 2007 02:04 AM         

In vain of course. But nice to see that we are on the same page anyway.

Unfortunately, Steve, there is not one of us humankind that can get through life without training wheels. We all had to learn to crawl before we could walk and walk before we could run didn't we? Such is life. No one is above those training wheels. NO ONE!!!

The caps were for you, Star.

posted June 10, 2007 08:47 AM         

I really never meant to cause you any discomfort.
I know this is a sensitive time for you.
I do think your children are miracles,
and I know your love for eachother is beautiful and good.
You are exactly where you are meant to be,
learning all you are meant to learn.
My love to you.

'Zala,

Thank you.

Mirandee,

For once, I agree with everything you said.

Personal love is the path we must tread before we can learn unconditional love, not just for our own children, but for all children everywhere (and that includes "grown children", as well). But it is not yet that love, and, relative to that love, it may very reasonably be termed "selfish", as I have termed it, and as those initiated into the higher spiritual planes, like Annie Besant, have also termed it.

ILWL,

I did not discover karma and spirituality yesterday, as you suggest, and I do not doubt that you have considered these things, or things similar to them, before. But these are the truths that deserve repeating. If you have found a comfortable niche for yourself, and resolved in your infinite wisdom not to bring these things to mind, please, at least, do not fault me for speaking them when they are on my own mind. Yes, I know people have thought about these things already, and I know they are deeply personal, but I also know that the most powerful force in the material universe is forgetfulness of God, and I need to speak my truth, with vigor and persistence, even if it is highly impersonal, and apparently hostile to your personal druthers.

"Forgive me this, my virtue.
For in the fatness of these pursy times
virtue itself must pardon beg of vice -
yea, curb and woo for leave to do him good."

- Hamlet, Prince of Denmark (Shakespeare)

"It takes very strong ears to hear ourselves judged frankly."

- Michel de Montaigne

posted June 10, 2007 09:13 AM         

quote:

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If you have found a comfortable niche for yourself, and resolved in your infinite wisdom not to bring these things to mind, please, at least, do not fault me for speaking them when they are on my own mind.

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There comes a point after realizing one's truth that one must live their truth. That's what I do. I live my truth. I personally consider that more important than coming here and talking about it ad nauseam.

There are people here who I listen to very carefully, not because their beliefs are similar to mine, but because I feel that these people know what they are talking about. People like Faye, Mirandee, Lialei, Mannu, Silverstone, Goatgirl among others. The difference between them and you, is the very irritating condescension permeating every thing that you have to say. This is what I have been objecting to all along (if you cared to read all my posts on this thread). It reeks out of every word you write.

posted June 10, 2007 09:21 AM         

quote:

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It would be terrible if enlightened spiritual people stopped bringing children into the world, and those who are not enlightened at all continued to bring more and more children into the world.

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posted June 10, 2007 09:38 AM         

Living your truth means speaking it, especially on a freakin' message board, where communication is almost 100% verbal. Who lives truth speaks truth to the face of falsehood, whatever the cost. That is all I have tried to do. If you think I am wrong, say so, and give reasons, if you have them. We can disagree. I think it must be because you can make no response to my points, that you are determined to substitute accusations for arguments. It happens every day. Just watch a political debate, and you will see the difference between a candidate who speaks about issues, and a candidate who, having no substance to his or her position, defends it by slinging mud at the other. Although, I've yet to see a candidate step down from the podium with the objection, "My opponent insists that he is right, and I am wrong, and uses logic to support his position! He's relentless!" You think you are rising above it, but you are only running away from the real challenge.

quote:

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This is my very last post to you on this thread. I really don't see any point in going over the same ground again and again.

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Nor do I.

What you see in every line I write is my conviction on matters in which you are mistaken, and it threatens you. Whether you see it or not, your tone is not much different from mine. The difference is, I am actually coming from a place of conviction, and so, am justified in speaking that way, while you are, by your own admission, coming from a place of uncertainty. Why do you permit yourself to speak this way, if you are not convinced of the truth of your position?

That's a retorical question.

I have nothing more to discuss with you.

posted June 10, 2007 09:41 AM         

Someone who merely desires to see the species evolve in the best possible way, and considers how it might be accomplished, is not thinking like a Nazi. A supremicist would desire to impose this restricion upon society by force. In this distinction there is a world of difference, my friend.

posted June 10, 2007 10:34 AM         

-- Schopenhauer

posted June 10, 2007 10:36 AM         

quote:

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Children are a lot of work, a lot of worry, but they are a true blessing in that they teach us so much. We learn so much about ourselves and about love and unselfishness from children. They are a sheer joy. Always making you laugh.

You don't automatically "GET" agape love. It doesn't just come to you. You will never acheive that kind of love until you first learn what love is through loving others in the "lesser" forms. No one teaches us love that comes anywhere near agape love like a child can.

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Mirandee,

Thank you so much for those beautiful thoughts. You expressed it just right and eloquently to boot.

Love,
GG

posted June 10, 2007 10:36 AM         

quote:

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There are people here who I listen to very carefully, not because their beliefs are similar to mine, but because I feel that these people know what they are talking about. People like Faye, Mirandee, Lialei, Mannu, Silverstone, Goatgirl among others. The difference between them and you, is the very irritating condescension permeating every thing that you have to say. This is what I have been objecting to all along (if you cared to read all my posts on this thread). It reeks out of every word you write.

---

posted June 10, 2007 11:11 AM         

- Friedrich Nietzsche

Realists do not fear the results of their study.

- Fyodor Dostoievsky

The majority of men do not think in order to know the truth, but, rather, to assure themselves that the life which they are living, and which is both habitual and agreeable to them, is the one that coincides with the truth.

- Leo Tolstoy

As long as your desire is pleasure,
and you cherish your desire,
carry on playing like a child;
you are not man enough for this.

- Hakim Sanai

What a bunch of arrogant geniuses!