posted August 31, 2007 01:48 PM           

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the death penalty is not neccessarily a deterent..
some criminals may even see it as state assisted suicide ..

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posted August 31, 2007 02:42 PM         

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It is likely the man had a pretty messed-up childhood. He was probably surrounded by a lot of violence and abuse which desensitized him. It's probably all he knew. He didn't know any other way.

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This is genius.

But then you go on to say that he had free will. How can a person have free will, or any choice at all, if they only know one way??? If they don't know any other way, how can they know any other way to choose?

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One can ALWAYS choose to do something different from what we know or have experienced. I think I've managed to choose differently from what I was given as normal.

It's about being present and conscious. Not just plugging in the auto pilot response system to the environmental stimuli that can trigger reactions.

Peace.
GG

posted August 31, 2007 06:55 PM         

I have merely been trying to make sense of it all myself.

I suppose it all depends on the way in which you view the world.

Keep shining, knowflakes!

One day we'll be free

posted September 02, 2007 12:16 AM         

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I say let the prisoners deal with the rapist and murders. The death penaltiy is way to essy.

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posted September 02, 2007 03:26 AM           

The punishment seems appropriate to the crime.

That little 9 year old girl had nothing to do with what happened to Couey in his life. So was it okay for him to work out his baggage on her? She did not deserve to be raped and buried alive because poor Couey had a bad childhood.

Really I do not like the term "bleeding heart" but I feel that attempting to justify a person who did something like this to a helpless child is really taking bleeding heart to the nth degree.

It's doubtful that if any of us fell into the hands of a monster like this that we would be analyzing his childhood and feel that he is not reponsible for what he is doing to us because he had it rough.

Hitler had a bad childhood too. Did that make him any less responsible for putting millions of people to their death? Perhaps history has been unkind to Hitler and we should instead consider him the real victim of a bad childhood instead of the millions of people who he ordered to be murdered.

Because it seems to me that some of you on this thread are making Couey out to be the real victim here. The victim of a bad childhood. In a sense maybe he was. But that does not make him any less responsible for his actions. If it does what about the many people who had horrible childhoods and became good, kind, loving people who lived productive lives? How is it that they managed to overcome the things that happened to them and Couey and others like him turned out to be predators and murderers? What do you account for the difference? I account it to those who spend their lives feeling sorry for themselves and choose to be a victim instead of choosing to resolve it inwardly, come to understand it, forgive and let go of the past and use it to become more compassionate and loving. It's due to the inner strength that we all have if we tap into it. We can overcome anything with that inner strength. People tap into that inner strength when they choose life instead of death. When they choose not to live life as a victim.

We are what we are based on the choices in life we make. We are not what we are based on our bad experiences in life because we can choose to overcome and rise above our experiences. Since we make the choices we are responsible and pay the consequences for those choices. In Couey's case the consquence he is paying for the choices in life he made is his own death by the state. No one or nothing that ever happened to him made him rape and kill that child. It was his choice.

posted September 02, 2007 06:50 AM         

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Doesn't mean callin the bloke for a cuppa or anything close to that-make no mistake and don't think Tuxie here is sayin' she is so spiritually evolved she can do this love, forgiveness, and thankfullness esp in cases like this! i am only saying again, "ONLY LOVE CAN KILL THE DEMON." Pitifully, Tuxedo Meow

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I think all readers should note: I don't think what anyone intends to do here is condemn those who feel angry/sickened by this man- as I said earlier- I feel that way myself as I am certainly not a spiritual master, just simple a student.

I think the issue came up because humanity as a whole, if it wants to advance, needs to find the true root of evil. We need to understand what causes it. Only then can evil be destroyed. If there is one thing we can all agree on then it would be that we all want to see an end to suffering and torture.

Imagine that man as a newborn baby. If we could all go back in time and hold this baby in our arms, how would we feel towards him? Was he aware of what he would become then? What happened to him? How can we protect all of our children from "evil"??!!

How can "evil" be overcome for once and for all??

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"ONLY LOVE CAN KILL THE DEMON."

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It will be a long, arduous task....it would take many well-educated professionals and healers, etc.

But anything, anything is possible.

posted September 02, 2007 11:36 AM           

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"But it makes me wonder, I mean the victims are only 1/2 of the story what about the others, the Hitlers, Himmlers and Mengeles? Or did they all go directly to the burning fires of hell? Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
I guess I ask because it scares me. How could someone ever make up for those crimes perpetrated in a former life?"

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To continue:
The story of the two women fighting over the baby in King Solomon's day.

Two women, who were living in the same house, each had a child at about the same time. One of the infants died. The conflict began after the woman who lost her baby switched her dead infant with the living infant of the other woman. Both were harlots, there was no father to help make an identification, so the matter was brought before Solomon. What to do? There were no modern-day fingerprints (or footprints) or photographs available; all that Solomon had to work with was human nature. So, Solomon resorted to a ruse with sword that had the effect of revealing the truth.

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Then came there two women, that were harlots, unto the king, and stood before him. And the one woman said, O my lord, I and this woman dwell in one house; and I was delivered of a child with her in the house. And it came to pass the third day after that I was delivered, that this woman was delivered also: and we were together; there was no stranger with us in the house, save we two in the house."
"And this woman's child died in the night; because she overlaid it. And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom. And when I rose in the morning to give my child suck, behold, it was dead: but when I had considered it in the morning, behold, it was not my son, which I did bear."

"And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spake before the king."

"Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living."

"And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other."

"Then spake the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said, O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it. But the other said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it."

"Then the king answered and said, Give her the living child, and in no wise slay it: she is the mother thereof."

"And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment." (1 Kings 3:16-28 KJV)

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quote:

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Baby found alive; woman arrested
Saturday, December 18, 2004 Posted: 3:14 PM EST (2014 GMT)

(CNN) -- Authorities late Friday said a Kansas woman who had a miscarriage earlier this year confessed to strangling a pregnant Missouri woman in her home and then cutting the baby from her womb -- a crime the local sheriff described as the most gruesome he had ever seen.

Lisa Montgomery, 36, of Melvern, Kansas, was arrested and charged in the kidnapping of the child "resulting in the death of the infant's mother" Bobbie Jo Stinnett, 23, according to an FBI affidavit filed late Friday.

If convicted, Montgomery could face a maximum of life in prison or the death penalty, and a maximum $250,000 fine.

The infant girl has been recovered and was in good condition at Stormont-Vail Regional Medical Center in Topeka.

The girl's father was reunited with her Friday evening, authorities said. She was the couple's first child.

"The baby is fine. The baby is doing great," U.S. Attorney Todd Graves said.

Stinnett was found dead in a pool of blood in her home Thursday afternoon by her mother, who called 911 saying it looked "as though her daughter's stomach had exploded," according to the affidavit.

Crime scene investigators later determined her womb had been cut laterally, the baby removed and the umbilical cord cut, the affidavit said.

"The victim was found with blond hair clenched in her hands," the affidavit says.

Town in shock
The crime shocked Skidmore, a town of about 300 people, with some residents shuttering their doors, saying they no longer felt safe.

"It's very hard for me to accept this," Nodaway County Sheriff Ben Espey told reporters. "Nobody here could ever perceive this taking place -- to have a fetus taken out of someone's womb and then doing an Amber Alert to try to find a child."

The affidavit paints a picture of deceit and premeditation on the part of Montgomery.

It alleges that the woman, using a fictitious name, contacted Stinnett on Wednesday through an Internet chat room about looking at rat terriers the Stinnetts sold over the Internet.

The two agreed to meet Thursday at Stinnett's home. Then, on Thursday afternoon, a neighbor reported seeing a dirty, red pinkish, two-door vehicle -- most likely an import -- outside the Stinnett home.

With a search under way on the ground, computer investigators began talking with Internet providers and were able to trace the fictitious e-mailer to the Montgomery's home, more than 130 miles away.

Authorities immediately began surveillance of the home and saw Montgomery Friday with a "newborn female infant," according to the affidavit
They also noticed a vehicle matching the description of the one seen outside the Stinnett's home. It alleges that the suspect's husband, Kevin, told authorities his wife called him shortly after he arrived home from work Thursday, around 5:15 p.m., saying she had gone shopping in Topeka, went into labor and had a baby.

The husband and the couple's two high-school age children drove to Topeka and met Montgomery in the parking lot of a Long John Silver's restaurant. He, his wife and the child drove home in his pickup truck, and the older children drove his wife's car, a red Toyota Corolla, the affidavit alleges.

Montgomery told her husband the baby was born at a women's clinic in Topeka, but authorities said a subsequent check there revealed no babies were born there Thursday.

Once in custody, the affidavit alleges, Montgomery "confessed to having strangled Stinnett and removing the fetus. Lisa Montgomery further admitted the baby she had was Stinnett's baby and that she had lied to her husband about giving birth to a child."

Espey and Graves said Montgomery had a miscarriage at some point this year, although they would not say how recently it occurred.

Espey told CNN the pregnancy was six months along when the child was lost. Of the possible motive in this case, Espey said, "I think she was probably going to take it because she had lost one through a miscarriage at about six months."

Authorities expressed great relief that the child was recovered alive, and attributed that success to the Amber Alert system.

Authorities learned of the Internet chat room where Montgomery allegedly made contact with Stinnett from a tipster in North Carolina. "We may have not ever recovered this little baby if the Amber Alert system was not put into place," Espey told reporters. "I'm overwhelmed with the fact that we're going to be able to get this baby back."

Sgt. Sheldon Lyon, a spokesman with the Missouri State Highway Patrol, said, "This is a great day for law enforcement in northwest Missouri."

The Internet chat room "Ratter Chatter," a haven for rat terrier lovers in cyberspace, was overwhelmed with responses from its users, many of whom indicated they knew both the victim and suspect in the case.

"I cannot believe how sorrowful I am. They have taken Lisa into custody. I don't know what is worse -- the horrible crime -- or the possibility that it might be Lisa. Someone just shoot me," wrote one user by the name of Jill.

Another user named Teresa wrote, "I am sitting here in shock, not knowing how to break this. I just received a phone call from a reporter in Missouri saying that Bobbie was killed today and her fetus stolen! I am absolutely horrified!"

Skidmore was the subject of intense media attention in 1981, when town bully Ken Rex McElroy was shot to death in his pickup on the main street in front of more than 40 witnesses. Despite a lengthy investigation, none of the witnesses would identify the killer.

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There are other similar cases:

quote:

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http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/13/pregnantwoman.attacked/index.html
DA: Woman tried to cut baby from neighbor

Friday, October 14, 2005; Posted: 9:51 a.m. EDT (13:51 GMT)
CNN) -- A Pennsylvania woman beat her eight-month pregnant neighbor with a baseball bat before taking her to a remote area and trying to cut out her unborn baby, a district attorney said Thursday.
SEE THE Above link if you wish to read this one in its entireity.

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So who are the victims and who are the murderers?
When past lives are added into the equation the reasons for certain horrific actions change...at least in theory.
Oh yes, the victim indeed can be innocent, no past life reason for them to suffer thusly, as in children, I especially feel they are innocent victims. Karmic justice only works if the victim is old enough to understand. A child is not. And I feel adult victims can be innocent of past life crimes. The ones who hurt or kill them just pick at random and for no other reason. So even with Karmic debts and reincarnation taken into account, it is not a case of simple black and white.

So before judging any human as inherently damned or evil or even an innocent victim...look at what may be the Karmic factors at work.
The exceptions I feel are most commonly children or young folks. Though some adults who are victims may be simply random targets.

Just some theories and hypotheticals to consider. I am not condoning Couey's vile crime; he still deserves the death penalty or worse.
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002124.html

posted September 02, 2007 12:02 PM           

quote:

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I think the issue came up because humanity as a whole, if it wants to advance, needs to find the true root of evil. We need to understand what causes it. Only then can evil be destroyed. If there is one thing we can all agree on then it would be that we all want to see an end to suffering and torture.

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posted September 02, 2007 05:16 PM           

Certainly, and there is no doubt of that as there is no doubt in my mind that his life from that point on was influenced by his experiences. My point is that bad life experiences only form the persons we are if we allow that to happen. My point is that it our choice to allow our bad experiences to control our lives and us or not. My point is that the difference in those that do allow their bad experiences to control their lives and their behavior and those that don't allow that to happen is that many, many people do tap into their inner strength and will and are determined not to be controlled by what others do or have done to them. They forgive and move on and live productive lives. The one is capable of using their own bad experiences in life to become more loving, compassionate and empathetic to others, and the other just goes through life working out what happened to them on people who had nothing at all to do what happened to them. Love cannot grow in a person like that. Compassion cannot grow, and the soul suffers as a result of that. The conscience is slowly and systmatically silenced until it no longer is heard and heeded.

I do not feel that anyone is judging anyone on this thread. I feel that it is a discussion. I do feel that in some cases there seems to be a bit of justification for this man for his crime based on what may have happened in his childhood.

The thing is, that we are overlooking the fact that some of the worse serial killers in history have had good parents and were not abused. To what do you attribute that?

That was the case of one of Michigan's worse serial killers, John Norman Collins. He grew up in a good home, with good parents and was one of the most popular guys in high school. Yet in college he raped, tortured and brutally murdered coeds at the University of Michigan and other young women in the Ann Arbor area.

This was not a man who had a bad childhood of abuse and this was not a man shunned or ridiculed in school by his fellow classmates. Yet he was a brutal serial killer. He is still alive. Still incarcerated in prison in Marquette, Michigan and will remain there without parole for the rest of his life. To this day he has shown absolutely no remorse for his crimes of torture, rape and murder.

posted September 02, 2007 10:03 PM         

Some are convinced that there is always an element of choice. This conviction is the only thing holding their arguments for retribution together. And yet, they can provide no reasons for believing this. Attempting to find reasons, the best they can do is try to dispute other points of view. They point out the fact that not everyone subject to certain experiences becomes a murderer. They ask the question "why is this so", but they dont really want to know, and they leave it to us to pursue the answer. Well, there is the answer for you: psychological predisposition.

Some people are more vulnerable to experience than others. There is not one standard for all. Again, if you acknowledge that there is some difference between people, and that some choices are easier for some people than they are for others, then ask yourself why you place a limit on this sliding scale, and still insist that, although it may be more difficult, the choice is always within their power. Your reasons for believing this are purely emotional, conditioned by your religious upbringing and lack of psychological predisposition for courageous, independent thinking.

The bottom line is this: There is a reason, a cause, for everything that happens. Anyone with common sense and the most basic reasoning skills, who has not been conditioned to reject this, must see that it is self-evidently true. Everything we understand, we understand because we can observe the direct and indirect causes and conditions contributing to its being. As we enlarge our perspective of anything, and begin to see the bigger picture, what is actually happening is that we are becoming aware of the surrounding conditions, and discovering that the thing in question is not independent of its environing conditions, and cannot be understood as something separate from them. One understand a thing in two ways: First, we observe the obvious behavior of the thing; how does it appear, how does it smell, what does it do, etc. Secondly, we investigate beneath the surface behaviors, in order to perceive the reasons why the thing appears, smells, sounds, or acts the way it does. The vast majority of people are not conscious, active, progressive thinkers, and do not bother with the reasons for things. Consequently, their understanding of anything is typically superficial.

"[The first principle of logic is as follows:
'Everything has a reason for being such as it is,
and for not being otherwise than it is.'
All representations of logic presuppose this to be true,
and no representation of logic is possible without reference to this principle.]"

~ Arthur Schopenhauer
'On The Four-Fold Root of The Principle of Sufficient Reason'

When asked, why a man murders, they say, "because he chose to". When asked why he chose to, they say, "because he was evil". When asked why is was evil, they say, "because he chose to murder". This is the circuitous reasoning typical of superfical thinkers, who give what is known as "operational definitions" of things. They can only repeat their observations of the surface behaviors, in a foolish attempt to get at the underlying causes. The reasons for the man's choice remain unidentified, and, indeed, their existence is denied outright. The man made his choice in a vaccuum; influenced, but unmotivated by the conditions he was born into, including the internal, psychological conditions. He is declared to be no different from anyone else, despite having chosen to do something which most others would never even consider doing, or have the slightest inclination towards. At the same time, his differentness is undisputed; - he was "evil". He chose to murder because he was simultaneously evil and not evil (i,e, free). Not only is this contradictory, but it remains a superficial, operational definition. What is evil? - "Evil is as evil does." For no reason. So say the unthinking hoards. The contradiction is apparent to anyone whose commonsense has not been systematically obliterated by years of ideological indoctrination. But what else can we expect from people belonging to a religion which simultaneously claims to promote the ideal of unconditional love, while affirming that eternal damnation is both a reality and a good thing?

posted September 02, 2007 11:02 PM           

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When asked, why a man murders, they say, "because he chose to". When asked why he chose to, they say, "because he was evil". When asked why is was evil, they say, "because he chose to murder". This is the circuitous reasoning typical of superfical thinkers, who give what is known as "operational definitions" of things. They can only repeat their observations of the surface behaviors, in a foolish attempt to get at the underlying causes.

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Seems you missed the whole point regarding choice that I and others have spoken of on this thread, HSC.

Speaking for myself I am not judging the state of the man's soul. I cannot know that. So therefore I cannot say the man was evil. I am judging his actions. His actions were evil. I don't feel that any human being is evil. It is not the way we were created to be. I said " Do I think he was a monster? He was to that little girl. He was the orge she read about in fairy tales." His actions were evil and our actions come solely from choice. No one makes us do anything we don't want to do. No one held a gun to Couey's head and forced him to do this. It was the choice he alone made. He alone is responsible for his choice. We all are. We are all responsible for the actions based on our choices.

quote:

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This is the circuitous reasoning typical of superfical thinkers, who give what is known as "operational definitions" of things. They can only repeat their observations of the surface behaviors, in a foolish attempt to get at the underlying causes.

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Are you "diagnosing" us again, HSC? You see, you never learn. Make your points without being insulting to everyone you are in a discussion with. Make your points without the pretensions of intellectual superiority over those you are in a discussion with. What you say might be better received if you just once tried to do that.

This is what I spoke of...repeated patterns of making the same wrong choices in life is what makes people act in certain ways and they never learn because they choose to blame everyone and everything outside of themselves when they receive negative reactions for their choices or when they are held responsible for the outcome of their choice.

It's always the fault of the other guy. It's my brain. No, it's because I had a rough childhood. No, it's because he/she started it. No, it's because I had a bad day. No, it's because things are not going well in my life right now. No, it's my illnesses that cause it. The list goes on and on and on. Everything would be great if it were just not for those people over there or that group or that person or whatever. But never do you ever hear any of these people say, hey, you know what? the problem just might be me.

I think that we may all have something to add to the puzzle of what makes some people do the things they do. Perhaps there is a strong possiblity that we are all right. There is also the strong possibility that we are all wrong.

posted September 03, 2007 04:08 AM         

quote:

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I think that we may all have something to add to the puzzle of what makes some people do the things they do. Perhaps there is a strong possiblity that we are all right. There is also the strong possibility that we are all wrong.

A discussion where people give their opinions and thoughts does not have to be about who is right and wrong.

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posted September 03, 2007 11:04 AM         

Well either way, he does deserve to get punished. Still... I know it's hard, but is it really up to us to judge? My belief in God makes me a bit torn here...

So anyways... It's terrible for such a thing to happen, and of course I wish it didn't happen, but I'll rather pray for the girl and everyone that loves her than for the punishing of the murderer.

posted September 03, 2007 11:24 AM         

Forgiveness is one of the most powerful and purest spiritual teachings. I feel. It has the power to transform everything. Just thinking, writing about it I can feel something magical happening in my heart.

I don't believe that it is necessary to experience every good or bad thing we may have done to others. It may be that our souls chose, on a higher level of its consciousness, to come back and experience something it has done to someone, for the purpose of evolution- perhaps this is the way we learn empathy(?). To do something good for someone in hope of gaining more points for oneself evades the truth....which is simply the spiritual knowledge inside...that we are all connected; to hurt another is really to hurt oneself.

I believe, that to realize fully one day (perhaps in the after life, or here...it doesn't matter where)....exactly what they have done to hurt someone....to fully empathize with this person or animal or whoever....is punishment ENOUGH.

I don't know if anyone has seen the film 'Powder'. It is a film about an albino boy, born with supernatural powers. He was raised in total isolation by his parents, until one day they died and he was taken away into the outside world, where this beautiful soul was ostracized by other teenagers at his school.

Anyway, one of his powers was having total empathy. One day, he found a wounded deer, lying, dying on the ground. He knelt down, beside the deer, witnessed by others who were with him, his heart bleeding. The huntsman, who had shot the deer came forward. Placing one hand on the deer, and the other on the huntsman, he transferred everything the deer was feeling into the huntsman. The man freaked out and was never, ever able to lay a finger on his gun ever again.

A similar thing happens at the end of the original 'The Crow' movie.

The only real evil is ignorance itself. We are only blinded by our own amnesia....which is forgetting who we truly are. Whenever we hurt other beings, we cut ourselves off more and more from the spirit. It is fear and hatred that makes people sink deeper and deeper into forgetfulness. It is this illusion that we are all separate when we are not. The most evil people in the world are living their lives with their souls asleep. To feel like this must feel so NUMB!!!
And yet, underneath it all, there is still some goodness in everyOne.

Enigma: 'In every colour, there's the light, In every stone sleeps a crystal'.

And if people could only REAL-EYES the truth...this real Oneness which permeates all life....

Then there would be no desire for anyone to ever be evil to another ever again.

My favorite clip from the film "Powder":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uz80zTMO40

posted September 03, 2007 01:23 PM         

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Speaking for myself I am not judging the state of the man's soul. I cannot know that. So therefore I cannot say the man was evil. I am judging his actions. His actions were evil. I don't feel that any human being is evil.

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Come, Mirandee, it is not his actions you wish to burn at the stake. Your hatred for the sinner, not the sin, is the very basis of this thread. You smile like the Cheshire Cat when you think of his soul burning in hell. If you had not already judged him, you would not be calling for his execution.

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our actions come solely from choice. No one makes us do anything we don't want to do. No one held a gun to Couey's head and forced him to do this. It was the choice he alone made. He alone is responsible for his choice. We all are. We are all responsible for the actions based on our choices.

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See, here's the thing, Mirandee. No matter how many times you repeat these cliches, it doesn't make them true. Your problem is that you always stop there. You never go deeper to explain the reasoning behind your claims. Instead, you sidestep the argument, and resort to more emotionally biased arguments, like the ones below.

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Are you "diagnosing" us again, HSC? You see, you never learn. Make your points without being insulting to everyone you are in a discussion with. Make your points without the pretensions of intellectual superiority over those you are in a discussion with. What you say might be better received if you just once tried to do that.

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"That which is of bitter taste is bound to be good medicine.
That which sounds unpleasant to the ear is certainly frank advice."
~ The Sutra of Hui-neng

quote:

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This is what I spoke of...repeated patterns of making the same wrong choices in life is what makes people act in certain ways and they never learn because they choose to blame everyone and everything outside of themselves when they receive negative reactions for their choices or when they are held responsible for the outcome of their choice.

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Kinda of like you are doing right now?

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It's always the fault of the other guy. It's my brain. No, it's because I had a rough childhood. No, it's because he/she started it. No, it's because I had a bad day. No, it's because things are not going well in my life right now. No, it's my illnesses that cause it. The list goes on and on and on. Everything would be great if it were just not for those people over there or that group or that person or whatever. But never do you ever hear any of these people say, hey, you know what? the problem just might be me.

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Bravo, Mirandee! You've stated the insensitive creed of cynics and conservatives everywhere very well. And again you provide no arguments to support your view. The essential point you make is, "This bothers me, I'm tired of this." While I sympathize, I cannot change the truth to suit your tastes. I believe it pleases you to think that all people are capable of being responsible for themselves. I think it helps you to sleep at night. "Not my problem." It keeps your world very simple, so that you dont have to bother with understanding people who do things you dont like. And, consciously or unconsciously, you know that, to argue for the innocence of humankind, is to argue for the guilt of the Creator. To do that would shake your entire worldview, and bring your Ivory Tower of Babel tumbling down. You show by your arguments that you are biased by emotions. It makes perfect sense that you would resist these ideas, which are dangerous and hostile to your position.

What I want to know, Mirandee, is, can you offer any reasons to explain why a person would choose to do something which he/she considers evil? Or, more succinctly, how a person can affirm and negate an action at the same time? That is what I would like to know. St. Paul speaks of this in the Epistle to the Romans when he says that there is a law in his members, in his flesh, which compels him to do that which he would not. "If I do that which I would not, it is no longer I who does it, but sin which dwelleth in me." Mirandee, Paul is here saying one of the very things you are sick and tired of hearing. He is saying that he is innocent of the sins commited by him. He does not speak of choice. He has already chosen righteousness, though the law in his members continues to sin. "For the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." You say you will not judge the souls of such people, but you have already rejected their witness. You are tired of hearing it. I agree, it is difficult to see into a person's soul, which is why, like Paul, I continue to suggest something a little more radical. I suggest we look into the Spirit, and see "the inward man", which is Christ, the Son (or Atman, the Self), and the pure, eternal essence of every one of God's children.

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I think that we may all have something to add to the puzzle of what makes some people do the things they do. Perhaps there is a strong possiblity that we are all right. There is also the strong possibility that we are all wrong.

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No, Mirandee, it is not logically possible for us both to be correct in this instance. Either there is a reason, something greater than the individual, of which he/she is largely unconscious, and which is responsible for his/her actions in the world, or there is not. At the risk of being politically incorrect, I must insist that we cannot have it both ways.

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A discussion where people give their opinions and thoughts does not have to be about who is right and wrong.

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No, it doesn't. But sometimes we meet someone who knows something we don't. Yeah, it happens, even to you, Mirandee. This person claims to have knowledge acquired by reason, as opposed to mere thoughts, opinions, or beliefs handed down from worldly institutions. We ought to listen to such a person and examine his reasoning, as it is curiously rare these days to meet with anything more than claims.

posted September 03, 2007 01:49 PM           

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You smile like the Cheshire Cat when you think of his soul burning in hell. If you had not already judged him, you would not be calling for his execution.

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posted September 03, 2007 01:58 PM         

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What I want to know, Mirandee, is, can you offer any reasons to explain why a person would choose to do something which he/she considers evil?

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For pure sadistic pleasure which gives a feeling of power, that's how.

I saw it in the eyes of someone who hurt me, this bully....and that was after I had forgiven them for the first time and become their friend!!!!!

posted September 03, 2007 02:12 PM         

History in the making!!!