posted September 03, 2007 02:14 PM         

The title of the thread here was born out of a heart which had been aching, bleeding with the sorrow of empathy for a helpless little girl found dead, tortured, clutching onto her toy dolphin. Pain gives birth to anger, anger born of sorrow.

I can feel deeply angry towards someone, but still love their inner essence.

There are those in life who are not yet ready to understand or be reasoned with, or will even tell you the truth about anything but are just out to manipulate as much as they can because they are compulsive liars.

Yeah, maybe when they understand the true meaning of love, empathy and respect they can be reborn in themselves, but that is quite a mountain to climb....perhaps too steep for mere mortals in some cases.
But certainly not all.

It all depends on the individual.

Who are we to judge each other?

You are condemning Mirandee for judging and yet you are judging her yourselves!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4usbDqUd76I

"All you need is Love"
- The Beatles

"Only love can kill the demon".

posted September 03, 2007 02:26 PM         

For example, if my son hits his younger brother, I ask him not to do it. I explain to him why he shouldn't do it, but right now he's too young to understand (like the souls of some criminals?). If he continues to do it, I get cross and say that he can't have something he might want.

You have to show them who's boss or they just do what they want.

But of course I'll always love my boys unconditionally, no matter how angry they may make me now or in the future.

I actually think I've made my eldest hard work for being too soft on him and not wanting to discipline him so much.

Just as toddlers need boundaries, so do criminals who are much less self aware than we are, and therefore can be compared to toddlers.

posted September 03, 2007 02:30 PM         

HSC and Mirandee, perhaps you two are more alike than you like to admit!

posted September 03, 2007 02:32 PM           

We have spoken often on this thread about judging. It keeps coming up in fact. Some have said those who are happy he got the death sentence of judging the man as evil. I agree that it is very wrong to judge the man's soul. We cannot see into the soul of others to be able to judge the condition of their soul. However it is not wrong to judge the man's actions as evil. We can - and all of us do - judge the actions of people. In fact, to judge that we are vengeful people is a judgement call of our character by what they perceive our motivations to be through our actions. Actions do reflect the character of a person so, yes, in a way when we judge the actions we are touching on the character of the person. Although actions are precarious and often do not reflect the true character of a person and certainly not the state of the person's soul.

Actions are many, many times based on emotions at the time. As they are in this case regarding Couey's sentence. For that reason I would not be happy if someone was given the death sentence in all cases of murder. Some murders are considered crimes of passion. That is why the law has established different degrees of murder, 1st degree which is premeditated or planned, 2nd degree which is unplanned, and manslaughter with is unintentional death. At least that's my understanding of the different degrees of murder. The law ( and these can be different in different states ) also only applies the death penalty to certain cases, not all crimes have that as the mandatory sentence.

There is no doubt that Couey planned this murder. He lived across the street from the child. He planned to abduct her in the middle of the night from her bed, he planned on raping her and he planned on killing her so she could not identify him. His only expressed feeling regarding his heinous crime is that it "was stupid." Only a sane person can be that plotting and calculating. Insane people do not act that rationally.

Because crimes against children are becoming more and more frequent I do feel that the death sentence should apply to all crimes against children. The prison system being the way it is, these people keep getting released back onto the street to continue preying on children. Psychiatry has determined, at this time, that pediphiles, or anyone whose crimes are related to their twisted sexuality, cannot be cured. Society has to protect our children from these people. Not only that society has been forced to adjust and change because of these people. Why should society have to live in fear because these people are sexually warped and twisted? Why does society have to adjust in the way we have to talk to our children about things that put fear into them just to accomodate these people? If anyone is a threat to our children and society as whole they should be removed from society. The thing about the individual rights of others is that it ends where someone else's nose begins. It ends when one person's rights does harm to or is disrespectful of the rights of another.

It is the duty of all parents, teachers and society as a whole to protect our children, to protect those who cannot protect themselves ( which also applies to animals ) by exacting strong penalites on those that do harm to defensless children and animals. Especially and foremost children. For that reason I am happy that Couey got the maximum penalty for his heinous crime. I did not judge him. He was given a trial. He was found guilty by a jury who heard all the evidence and he was sentenced by the judge to the maximum penalty. My happiness is due to his being permanently removed from society so that he cannot harm another child. My happiness is that it sent out a strong message for others who prey on helpless children that society has shown in this case the limit of tolerance it has when it comes to harming a child. I would have been just as happy if Couey's sentence would have been mandatory life in prison with no chance of parole. As long as he off the street and taken out of society there is one less predator of children loose.

I am also happy that the law is being very tough on the Atlanta Falcon's quarterback for his participation in dog fights and the part he played in mistreatment and death of dogs. I hope he also gets a very stiff prison sentence.

Society has to start cracking down in order to protect the helpless amongst us. Compassion is a beautiful gift, a beautiful thing. It is we who, through our own conscience, decide where our compassion is most importantly directed. We all here on this thread have exhibited compassion. It just seems to me that we have different ideas of where that compassion is most importantly directed. Towards the helpless victim or towards the predator who took brutally treated that helpless victim and ended her young life in a very, very horrible, unthinkable way.

It is not the man I hate. It is what he did, his actions that I hate. Hate the sin, not the sinner. It is not the soul of the man that I judge as evil. It's his actions - what he did - that I judge as evil.

We can speculate, as we are doing, what made him do the things he did. But we will never know that. Even psychology can really on speculate and form opinions as to why some use their bad experiences in life to become better people and live productive lives while others can't get beyond their bad experiences in life and work it out on others in heinous ways.

I do understand what others are saying when they suggest that it is in some way contributing to the cycle of vengeance to put the man to death and our being happy about that. I see the point. I admit that I was perhaps over emotional in the way I presented this post. However, what he did to that child stirred every protective emotion in my being. I have a 9 year old grand daughter and other young grand children. I have zero tolerance for pediphiles and that comes from knowing first hand how children feel when put in that situtation. It also comes from being a mother and grandmother. I am not justifying my emotional response. I am just being gentle with myself and understanding of it and also understanding of those emotional responses of others here on this thread. I also know that God understands it and that is why I can be gentle with not only myself but others who feel the same way.

Couey may be repulsive to me but he is a human being and I agree, in spite of his heinous crime, he does also deserve our compassion, our pity and our forgiveness. May God have mercy on his soul.

posted September 03, 2007 02:44 PM         

Our children aren't safe as long as there are those walking around who have a sadistic nature.

Because of my sensitivity, I don't have any part of me which is sadistic, despite my passionate emotions and anger. For this reason I would rather he got the death sentence than a prison sentence where he would have been tortured by his inmates......

Although, it is (only??) through suffering ourselves that we learn empathy. (Not necessarily in a prison though as that might not be the right; perhaps they have already experienced suffering.....)??

Secondly, we must learn to love ourselves before we can love others, otherwise there would be just a great black, destructive void. That is something which many criminals are living in.

posted September 03, 2007 02:53 PM         

1)We have the right to hate the actions of a person, but not their inner essence.

2)We have a right to set up some boundaries in society to protect children, who are so much more aware of and sensitive to any suffering they experience than an adult would be in the same situation.

3)We need to work on ways to understand evil better, and develop better ways to heal a person inside out.

posted September 03, 2007 06:10 PM         

On the subject of empathy, I feel one way to learn, to feel the unity in life is through touch (non-sexual). All human beings require plenty of the expression of physical intimacy in the early stages of life, and it will always be important, though some (especially some English people I know) grow up in environments where this part of human nature is inhibited.

posted September 03, 2007 07:52 PM         

Being mostly a quiet reader here this past week, I've wondered if God hears everyone's passion and care (both sides) and all the rest...
all the differences and details,
all the judgement, argument and debate
is like white noise.

posted September 03, 2007 09:51 PM         

Nice Lialei!!!!

Lovely!!!!

posted September 04, 2007 01:42 PM         

I still believe that what made you happy, Mirandee, was, at least partially, the thought of this man's downfall, although, I also think the subsequent reasons you gave, which I can easily understand, had a lot to do with it. I just want to repeat and clarify myself a little here by saying that I do understand those feelings, all of them. But when they are translated into close-minded points of view, ideologies, ideas, etc., - then, I feel compelled to speak out in opposition to them. Anger never sees a matter clearly.

I also think that history has given us numerous examples of lunatics blessed or cursed with the power to reason very coldly and calculatingly. In fact, I think many forms of madness are predicated upon an ability to focus very narrowly, and to perform certain actions with obsessive care, and minute attention to detail. The ability to think, or premeditate, is not entirely absent in most forms of madness. What is essential to ask is not, "what was he aware of", but, "what wasn't he sufficiently aware of,". In this case, the man had a deficiency of empathy. He lacked awareness of this little girl as something other than an object. If that is not madness, what is?

In any case, I'm fairly satisfied that I've said my peace. Mirandee has almost admitted to being overzealous in her initial remarks, and has clarified them to a significant degree, expressing more understanding and compassion than was previously shown.

quote:

---

I do understand what others are saying when they suggest that it is in some way contributing to the cycle of vengeance to put the man to death and our being happy about that. I see the point. I admit that I was perhaps over emotional in the way I presented this post... I am not justifying my emotional response... he is a human being and I agree, in spite of his heinous crime, he does also deserve our compassion, our pity and our forgiveness. May God have mercy on his soul.

---

Now she says he deserves our compassion, our pity, and our forgiveness.
A far cry from what she said before, and what I objected to:

quote:

---

I'm very happy to see this man die... it's something he deserves.
I think he is getting off easy. They should bury his sorry a$$ alive.

---

Say what you will,
no one can argue that I didn't make my point.

posted September 04, 2007 01:57 PM         

It ain't worth downing others views or the person, just to get that point across, one loses alot of viewer's this way!!!
Maybe even a friend????

To be a good LEADER, one Must learn how to follow first!!!

Don't assign anything to anyone unless you can do it better yours-ELF First!!!!

Balance is needed my friend!!!

Kindness and understanding, always works Wonders!!!

posted September 04, 2007 02:01 PM         

It's in the past now!!!!

Break FREE!!!!

You can FLY HIGHER ABOVE ALL THIS, I know you can!!!

posted September 04, 2007 02:08 PM         

We are all trying to make sense of it, in our own way, and it is a very emotional task.

What we need to remember is that we all have our own limited viewpoints

Quite often when another person judges us, we feel offended, patronized, misunderstood, etc. So whenever constructive criticism is given, heaps of diplomacy, tact and signs respect are required simultaneously. It is a tricky situation.

And it would be a lot easier if we could go back to the days where we could communicate without words!

I want you to know I love you all. I have a lot of admiration for all of you.

I cannot take sides- I have to just follow the beat of my own drum no matter who I feel closest to; that's just who I am.

I love you all. I feel you are angels. Yet, at the same time, we are fallen; and all humans make mistakes

posted September 04, 2007 02:16 PM         

I also have great admiration for him. He has so much to offer.

I think perhaps he doesn't chose his words as well as he could and can sometimes come across as a bit patronizing.

But he doesn't claim to be perfect.

I don't think that particular post was anything 'bad'.

I think we all need to read between the lines more.

posted September 04, 2007 05:40 PM           

LL is somewhat multicultural and we have folks practicing many religions and or philosophies here. To hear that my post concerning reincarnation was in their opinion directed at them personally is not true. It is sad they took offense where no offense was intended.

Why is it of late one cannot speak clearly and from a viewpoint other than ones who do not believe in reincarnation?

My post was a reply, not intended to offend but simply illustrate another theory on such things.

posted January 23, 2009 02:42 AM         

We havent had such sentiences actually carried out for a while but a couple of years ago the judge decided not to commute the death sentence to life - as is done usually.

But in the last two years many..such heinous crimes involving rape and nmurder have been awarded death - despite liberal nutjobs asking for sympathy

This whole life versus death is a raging debate. i am all for forgiveness and compassion so this an issues very black and white...