posted September 13, 2007 02:17 PM         

Say the woman with the new hairdo is a co-worker you barely know, and suddenly she wants your opinion on it. Imagine that you don't care for it.

You can be honest, and wreck this person's day, wreck your chances of becoming friends with this person, and set in motion whatever other consequences you might get from such a response.

You could tell a white lie and act busy. "It looks fine, but listen I've got a lot of stuff to do here." The woman walks away unbothered by you and your response, and you have more time to consider what you actually think about her hair in case she should ask again for some reason.

You could change the subject altogether, and avoid answering. "I can't talk now. I have to be somewhere." This could be considered a lie, but can also very easily morph into the truth.

In the end, most people don't want to hurt other people's feelings, nor do they want to take the time to sit down and psychoanalyze how the person became so needy as to require an opinion. If the person asking for the opinion really wants your honest take on it, they'll express it in the inquiry and/or it will be implied by the fact that they came to you specifically and not someone else.

A person knows that when they ask a near stranger for an opinion they will almost always receive the least offensive answer.

A person knows that when they ask a friend or family member for an opinion they could get brutal honesty, or they might have to specify the desire to be given the whole truth.

posted September 13, 2007 03:13 PM         

quote:

---

Say the woman with the new hairdo is a co-worker you barely know, and suddenly she wants your opinion on it. Imagine that you don't care for it.

---

Ok...if her hair was not too weird, and just some style I did not like, as poodle head or
60s flip, or too military, I would say it looks OK. If it looked ok..and not something that would make children scream and have nightmares! Or I would say, if it were that way, "Very unique look!"....and hope they did not press for more...and if they did, I'd say go ask a few more folks, I'm not up on hair fashion, I mean I just let mine hang!
But all that can backfire!I will explain after quoting you again:

quote:

---

You can be honest, and wreck this person's day, wreck your chances of becoming friends with this person, and set in motion whatever other consequences you might get from such a response.

---

posted September 13, 2007 03:14 PM         

I swear. folks like that just want to argue for the sake of arguing. No answer will ever be the right one for them.

quote:

---

You could tell a white lie and act busy. "It looks fine, but listen I've got a lot of stuff to do here."[/quote[I hate that when it is done to me so why would I do it to another person? That IS not only a lie but rude.[quote]The woman walks away unbothered by you and your response, and you have more time to consider what you actually think about her hair in case she should ask again for some reason.

---

posted September 13, 2007 03:15 PM         

quote:

---

You could change the subject altogether, and avoid answering. "I can't talk now. I have to be somewhere." This could be considered a lie, but can also very easily morph into the truth.

---

quote:

---

In the end, most people don't want to hurt other people's feelings,

---

quote:

---

nor do they want to take the time to sit down and psychoanalyze how the person became so needy as to require an opinion.

---

quote:

---

If the person asking for the opinion really wants your honest take on it, they'll express it in the inquiry and/or it will be implied by the fact that they came to you specifically and not someone else.

---

quote:

---

A person knows that when they ask a near stranger for an opinion they will almost always receive the least offensive answer.

---

quote:

---

A person knows that when they ask a friend or family member for an opinion they could get brutal honesty, or they might have to specify the desire to be given the whole truth.

---

quote:

---

Either way, the person wanting the opinion is potentially putting their [temporary] feelings of self-worth in your hands. You are expected to act accordingly [in whatever manner suits you best].

---

posted September 13, 2007 11:37 PM           

It's also very true that we might be more honest with a close friend or family member about their hairdo or their new outfit or whatever than we would an acquaintance or co-worker or someone we don't know that well.

Basically what I was saying is that honesty has to be meted out with love. But we should be honest with ourselves first in examining our motives and our conscience and use honesty to come to know ourselves better and our own faults before applying that honesty in pointing out the faults of others.

I just feel that even though I am an honest person and value honesty highly, I do not feel that I should in every situation place my honesty above the feelings of others who might be hurt by it. When applying honesty to others it should always be done with love and in a gentle way. One place where I have learned this lesson is at LL through all the arguments and disagreements.

I do agree with AG. If it were a person I did not know well I would not sit down and psychoanalyze them as to why they need affirmation. The only thing that would matter to me is that they do need affirmation and I will gladly compromise my honesty a little in order to give them that. We all need affirmation. We all need our feelings validated. We all want others to approve of us and like us. But we should first affirm ourselves,like ourselves and approve of ourselves. Then we don't have to look for that in others. But, boy, it sure feels goods when others do approve of us, affirm us and like us. Self-confidence comes from within. We can't give that to others. But it doesn't hurt to compromise my honesty a little and tell a little white lie to someone in order to help them feel good about themselves. What do I lose? Nothing. I lose nothing if I live an overall life honestly.

Unless you speak to me directly I am not assuming anything you say is directed at me at this time, Fayte. So there is no reason why you should not feel free to speak your mind honestly. It does not matter if I or others agree with what you say and it does not matter to me if anyone doesn't agree with what I say. We are dicussing here. Just giving our thoughts and opinions on white lies vs honesty as AG put it.

If you think I am assuming you are speaking about me isn't that you assuming that I am assuming? Should I assume that you are assuming that I am assuming? LOL See how silly that can get? So relax. Be yourself and say what you want to as long it does not pertain to any private matters because I have set those boundaries for myself when I stated more than once on other threads that I do not wish to discuss private matters on the public forums of LL.

Nephthys said that in her post and I agree with her. You are a knowflake and I am a knowflake so we can both give our thoughts and opinions on things. Freely.

posted September 14, 2007 08:02 AM         

quote:

---

Unless you speak to me directly I am not assuming anything you say is directed at me at this time, Fayte. So there is no reason why you should not feel free to speak your mind honestly. It does not matter if I or others agree with what you say and it does not matter to me if anyone doesn't agree with what I say. We are dicussing here. Just giving our thoughts and opinions on white lies vs honesty as AG put it.

If you think I am assuming you are speaking about me isn't that you assuming that I am assuming? Should I assume that you are assuming that I am assuming? LOL See how silly that can get? So relax. Be yourself and say what you want to as long it does not pertain to any private matters because I have set those boundaries for myself when I stated more than once on other threads that I do not wish to discuss private matters on the public forums of LL.

Nephthys said that in her post and I agree with her. You are a knowflake and I am a knowflake so we can both give our thoughts and opinions on things. Freely.

The way I see it how I perceive things you say is not your problem, Fayte and how you perceive things I say is not my problem. That makes it easy for both of us to speak our minds freely.

---

posted September 14, 2007 09:00 AM         

"how do I speak freely if I am not permitted to reply to you directly?"

Where did she forbid you to speak directly to her?
In the post you quoted, I only see her saying that
she does not assume you are speaking directly to her.
Did I miss a post where she told you not to address her?

posted September 14, 2007 09:15 AM         

I've been catching up on everybody's replies. My honest and unsolicited opinion is that some of these replies are a little long-winded, partly because people are repeating themselves and stating the obvious too much. There are meaty arguments being offered up all over the place (too many to take up, chew over, and do justice to), and I dont want to miss them just because I lose my patience trimming the fat, so to speak. Many of the points made are great and stand on their own. The more we try to bolster them, the more we merely belabor them, detracting from the power of their brevity. Also, some of your best arguments are dying on the vine because there are so many lesser ones being offered up at the same time. Your prolific inventiveness for arguments hinders the effectiveness of any individual one. In addition to this, our dependency on piling up lesser arguments perhaps suggests a lack of confidence in the greater ones.

Let each one understand
The meaning of sincerity
And guard against display!
~ chuang-tzu

I like that so many dishes are set before me, but I regret that I must turn so many of them away, or else, end up merely sampling them, and being sufficiently nurished by none of them.

posted September 14, 2007 09:50 AM           

Thank you for clarifying what I actually said.

And thank you for also for pointing out in a much nicer way what my husband is always telling me when I relate things to him, " Say it in a 100 words or less." Although I don't think you are just talking about me. But I do know that I do that.

posted September 14, 2007 09:57 AM         

I can understand not wanting to hurt others' feelings. I can see how some people might think it's wrong or "not nice" to be honest with someone when it could be hurtful. Really, though, it isn't that difficult to be honest and tactful in most circumstances.

But why the devil do *overweight people in spandex ask anybody if they look fat? How "not nice" is it to put others in an uncomfortable etiquette situation just to what? Feed you ego? How do you not realize that you do indeed look fat or unappealing or have frightening hair, etc? Seriously. I just can't believe that these people are always completely innocently unaware of how they do actually look (or seem or sound or whatever it is that's under discussion). I don't appreciate emotional manipulation no matter how innocent it may appear to be. If you don't want to be told you "look fat" then for heaven's sake wear an outfit that flatters you and don't harass innocent bystanders for an ego boost when you don't. And I've known people who have no idea what kind of outfit flatters them. But, you know, they're the ones that actually want an honest opinion about whether this or that looks nice on them or not. I hope, if one day I honestly don't realize I look simply ghastly, that one of my friends (or heck even a stranger) would please let me know. I have no desire to frighten or offend innocent people nor do I desire to place them in the uncomfortable position of lying to me to try to spare my feelings when, in reality, I'd probably frighten or offend myself by just looking in a mirror if I were in my right mind and so clearly am not at that moment.

*Before someone gets offended, I have nothing against overweight people. If a "fashionably" emaciated lady asked me if she looked good in a bikini, I'd be as tactfully honest as I could be with her, too.

posted September 14, 2007 10:04 AM         

quote:

---

Unless you speak to me directly I am not assuming anything you say is directed at me at this time

---

quote:

---

First off how do I speak freely if I am not sure how you will react, based on my previous experiences of late with you when I have directly replied to you? I feel based on prior reactions from you not on mere assumptions that you may become affronted when no affront was intended.

---

quote:

---

First off how do I speak freely if I am not permitted to reply to you directly?

---

And she said:

quote:

---

The way I see it how I perceive things you say is not your problem, Fayte and how you perceive things I say is not my problem. That makes it easy for both of us to speak our minds freely.

---

quote:

---

As to how I perceive what you say, it is my problem if you become angry when I did not intend to offend, or take it personal and become upset when I reply to someone else or give my point of view. Case and point, my thumbsup to ones you disagree with. My post about Solomon and Hitler and reincarnation on the Couey execution thread.

---

posted September 14, 2007 10:24 AM           

So the questions are when and when not to apply direct honesty?

Are there cirmcumstances in life when we should withhold direct honesty for the sake of the feelings of others?

When we do decide to apply direct honesty what is the best way to do it that does not do more harm to the other person than good?

Of course we are going to have different thoughts on this according to our own perspectives. As long as we can discuss this topic with that in mind we can prevent arguments. We can disagree with what someone else saiid but there really is no right and wrong because our thoughts and feelings on this matter comes from our perspective and our conscience.

The topic we are discussing does cover a lot of area. I did in my last post touch on the psychology aspect. We are also entering the field of moral theology when we talk about this. Keeping in mind that the definition of theology is really just "God talk" and moral theology consists of decisions of the conscience. This also touches on the field of sociology.

posted September 14, 2007 10:30 AM         

quote:

---

I'm a big fan of telling the truth no matter what ... ok, unless I really am hiding Anne Frank in my attic and the Nazis are coming; then I'd lie without compunction.

---

quote:

---

I can understand not wanting to hurt others' feelings. I can see how some people might think it's wrong or "not nice" to be honest with someone when it could be hurtful. Really, though, it isn't that difficult to be honest and tactful in most circumstances.

---

quote:

---

Really, though, it isn't that difficult to be honest and tactful in most circumstances.

---

quote:

---

But why the devil do *overweight people in spandex ask anybody if they look fat?

---

quote:

---

How "not nice" is it to put others in an uncomfortable etiquette situation just to what? Feed you ego? How do you not realize that you do indeed look fat or unappealing or have frightening hair, etc? Seriously. I just can't believe that these people are always completely innocently unaware of how they do actually look (or seem or sound or whatever it is that's under discussion). I don't appreciate emotional manipulation no matter how innocent it may appear to be. If you don't want to be told you "look fat" then for heaven's sake wear an outfit that flatters you and don't harass innocent bystanders for an ego boost when you don't.

---

quote:

---

And I've known people who have no idea what kind of outfit flatters them. But, you know, they're the ones that actually want an honest opinion about whether this or that looks nice on them or not.

---

quote:

---

I hope, if one day I honestly don't realize I look simply ghastly, that one of my friends (or heck even a stranger) would please let me know.

---

quote:

---

I have no desire to frighten or offend innocent people nor do I desire to place them in the uncomfortable position of lying to me to try to spare my feelings when, in reality, I'd probably frighten or offend myself by just looking in a mirror if I were in my right mind and so clearly am not at that moment.

---

quote:

---

*Before someone gets offended, I have nothing against overweight people.

---

quote:

---

If a "fashionably" emaciated lady asked me if she looked good in a bikini, I'd be as tactfully honest as I could be with her, too.

---

posted September 14, 2007 10:51 AM           

These are just my thoughts about it.

I think that people who ask these types of questions are in need of affirmation because of their inward insecurities. Truth is judging by our society today where women are getting breast implants, bo-tox, lyposuction, plastic surgery, and anorexia and bulemia are at an all time high there are many, many people who are insecure about the way they look. The media promotes appearance and it is now affecting males as well as females in our society.

These types of people look outwardly for affirmation from others because inwardly they have not affirmed and defined theirself. Their feeling is that the better they look the more they will be affirmed. Their whole self-worth is tied up in how they look to others. Yet inwardly they still are insecure about their looks. Anorexics still see themselves as fat in the mirror when they are in reality emaciated.

To a bone thin woman or man who asks me how they look I would in a kind way tell them they have a pretty face ( or handsome face ) but they would look a lot better if they gained some weight.

It's really inward affirmation they are looking ouwardly for because they have not affirmed themselves. I feel the media is largely responsible for that because it creates what amounts to an unrealistic ideal of how people should look. With women it is what I term the Barbie doll image. I can see my grand daughters buying into that brainwashing of the media and at very young ages they are becoming very appearance conscious. Disney network is doing more harm to children than good in that respect.

In the case of anorexic looking people I think it would be harmful for them in the long run to not be honest with them. To say they look nice when they are walking skeletons would be the wrong thing to do in my mind. That would be an instance when honesty would be necessary but in a gentle, tactful way.

You are right that when these types of people are asking those questions of others it is manipulation. However, they are manipulating because they need the affirmation due to lack of self-affirmation and most likely like it is with many manipulators they are not even consciously aware they are manipulating.

posted September 14, 2007 10:51 AM         

quote:

---

The spirit observes quietly
and endures impeccibly, regardless of whether there is ever recognition of such purity--keeps enduringly so onwards in every exchange and action. Intention, care. Motivation, love.
In the quiet, watching the wheels spin,
all is seen in raw clarity beyond surfaces, promotion and influence...

the deeper realms are revealed.

---

This is so beautiful, Lia, and very true.

The only thing I would add is that we must always be careful not to imagine ourselves more pure than we are, or our perspectives more pure than they are, simply because we are coming from a place of relative stillness, or because our views are colored by a more retiring, more patient, "lazier", more relaxed, and/or more receptive (less imposing) mood or temperament.

Seeing things from a place of deep quiet may be, perhaps more than we care to admit, a lot like seeing things from a great distance. This has its merits, but is not always capable of clarifying an entire matter. I'm reminded of Bette Midler's song, "From a Distance": "From a distance you look like my friend, even though we are at war." It is important to see both our affinities, and our conflicts clearly, in order to reach honest and mutually beneficial resolutions.

God's is not the bird's eye view, nor the ant's, though he sees what is both great and small. To look through the eyes of God is to see all things in focus. Focus is balance, and balance involves pragmatism; being in the world, but not of it; not so pure as to defy a mortal's grasp, nor so impure as to lose sight of the grail. Even genius, for the sake of the mortal it inspires, must take care, as mortals must, not to rise or descend so far as madness.

"Of what use is genius,
if the organ is too convex or too concave
and cannot find a focal distance within the actual horizon of human life?"
- Emerson

The precision of our gaze, as it corresponds to any single object, is always softened to the extent that the object is related to a larger context; the larger the context, the softer our perception of the particular object. This "softening" is necessary in order to understand the object as it truly is; that is to say, within the context belonging to it. A narrow focus will certainly define sharp parameters for the object, but the only way to see it in relief is to see it against the backdrop of its natural habitat. What is essential to rememeber here is moderation. If we look through a microscope, we will take time to adjust the lens. First we will hold the lens too close, then too far away, before we zero in on a point of focus between these extremes. In a similar way, when observing one another, we are in a position of having to determine just how broad, or how narrow, a context is necessary to provide the clearest understanding of the situation.

I say, "the situation", and not "the object", because our ultimate purpose, if we are to remain true to it, must be to perceive the entire happening. Neither the object, nor the context, must be allowed to monopolize our view. What must be considered is, rather, the essential and interdependent conditions of each of these in regards to the other (i.e. the significant relations between them). In the case of a person, we would have to consider the conditions, internal and external, which collaborated to produce his or her actions, as well as the conditions which are the direct and indirect consequences of those actions. Having overlayed these images, like slides under a microscope, we are presented with something truly unique and holographic. That a person, along with the actions and consequences corresponding to that person, may be, at one and the same time, many things, is not easily comprehended. There is no singular image which readily presents itself to explain the matter in its entirety. Under the lens of analysis, the images of person, actions, and consequences are broken down into their constituent elements and reoriented to one another, in the form of a multidimensional concept, concretized in the mind, and existing only as an abstraction, as it were, in the margins between causes and effects.

This process requires a balancing act of great skill and dexterity. Perhaps, as Kafka wrote, the Way is like a tightrope stretched just inches from the ground, and it is meant, not so much to be walked upon, as to trip us up. Because, in the beginning, and the middle, and maybe even in the end, there really is no single point of focus. Awareness of any situation is actually a multidimentional composite of many views, taken from diverse angles and forged in the soul by osmisis. Each view is equally essential to holistic awareness, but each, when taken alone, is unable to provide an impartial representation of the whole. This explains how wisdom develops over time. While a child may see the same thing an elder sees, the elder has already seen much more, and is able to interpret what he or she sees within a larger context. We must endeavor to see with the eyes of wisdom, remembering to observe our subject from a variety of angles, while yet retaining the freshness of youth, which grasps the individual significance and uniqueness of every new situation as it arises. The latter is a lesson which cannot be aquired from experience, only guarded from it.

If balance is quiet, it is also loud. It is both of these in moderation, and neither to the exclusion of the other. Balance is close but not too close, far but not too far away. It does not judge or flatter. But tempers judgement with flattery, and flattery with judgment, marrying the one to the other, in order to produce something unique and nondual; something which encompasses both censure and praise.

The balanced voice is gentle without being indulgent; it is firm without being severe; modest without being meek; proud without being bold; assertive without being pushy;
moral without being sanctimonious; etc. It is more an ideal than a state to be realized and accomplished.

This is not to say that perfect balance and perfect focus are not to be experienced, or only to be experienced by enlightened ones. On the contrary, I agree with Hui-neng, that we are alternately enlightened one moment and unenlightened the next. One thought opens our eyes, the next closes them. Ultimate wisdom is knowing when to look, and, more to the point, when to stop looking. It is grasping the subtle difference between the thought that knows, and the thought that merely thinks (and thinks it knows).

posted September 14, 2007 11:13 AM         

quote:

---

You are right that when these types of people are asking those questions of others it is manipulation. However, they are manipulating because they need the affirmation due to lack of self-affirmation and most likely like it is with many manipulators they are not even consciously aware they are manipulating.

---

quote:

---

I don't appreciate emotional manipulation no matter how innocent it may appear to be.

---

quote:

---

EXACTLY! That extends into other areas too. It is very nerve wracking to be repeatedly asked; do you love me, do you like me, am I pretty, handsome etcetera, when one has repeatedly replied, yes to them. After awhile one begins to question why they need so many ego boosts, why they are fishing for compliments. Yeah it shows they are insecure but it still become tedious after awhile.
Or when one disagrees with another and they toss in out of nowheres. "you don't like/ love me anymore, you think I am stupid! I disgust you!"
I am like huh? Where the heck did that come from? Or the "no one likes/loves me anymore" after one has just got saying they do like /love the said sad person. It becomes in my mind a form of emotional manipulation. Worse if then they toss in, "no one loves me I should just kill myself" after they just finished crying on my shoulder and I comforted them. I mean, what am I to them, chopped liver? I also find the suicide threats whether meant or not, a form of emotional blackmail. I find all that very manipulative and disturbing and do not know how to deal with it. That has happened to me with several folks. I usually after a certain point tell them they need to see a therapist about their self esteem insecurity issues.
But that usually hurts their feelings too.

---

posted September 14, 2007 05:57 PM         

so says Ralph Waldo Emerson.

A round of Jasmine, Roses and Sweet Peas to all!

------------------
~
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~