posted September 17, 2007 12:15 PM           

No sinister intentions here on my part. I am just giving my opinion about that phrase - brutal honesty. I feel it is a ploy our self-serving society has come up with to disguise their cruelty to others by hiding behind honesty. The phrase is really just a way of justifying cruelty to others. It's a manipulative phrase conjured up to actully deceive others and while at the same time justifying ourselves. We have lots of those terms and phrases in our society. So it's good to question them otherwise we risk the danger of being brainwashed by the repetiveness of them. We can be brainwashed to actually believe that being brutally and directly honest in all circumstances is morally right. When actually it is not. Honesty should never be manipulated for the purpose of using it as a weapon against others.

My point is that if a "direct approach" hurts others and we know it will to go ahead and use it without tempering it with compassion and love is indeed an act of cruelty and insensitivity for the feelings of others on our part.

I would appreciate hearing the thoughts of others on this phrase.

edite: I agree about different perceptions but do not see different perceptions as complicating communications. I think different perceptions enhance communication by helping each other learn.

posted September 17, 2007 12:26 PM         

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Now I am questioning as to why Fayte has chosen to use the word "brutal" in context with the virtue of honesty. Honesty is a highly esteemed virtue and it does not describe just moments in time of our lives but the overall way we live our lives.

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direct and precise; "he spoke with brutal honesty"
direct - straightforward in means or manner or behavior or language or action; "a direct question"; "a direct response"; "a direct approach"

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No pussy footing or hem hawing or beating around the bush.

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Not attempting to complicate communications here, Fayte. I am giving my perception. I am giving my thoughts. I truthfully do not like the word "brutal" attached to the virtue of honesty.

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As for brutal honesty, that I used here for a hypothetical question.
Don't go reading too much into it.
I will say I prefer RADICAL HONESTY or PURE HONESTY or JUST PLAIN AND SIMPLE NO LYING!
BRUTAL IS RUDE! If one were to say, "oh that car is sooo ugly! That is an opinion, their personal feeling, their truth. But another may say. ooh what a cool car! Again not absolute truth for all but honest OPINION! NOT BASED ON FACT BUT ON FEELING/OPINIONS! That opinion/feeling angle is where brutal can sneak in instead of pure honesty and or radical honesty.

posted September 17, 2007 12:36 PM           

Even if it is a "common term" those common terms are not necessarily morally right and are often used to brainwash others into believing they are morally right.

So yes, I do think we should always question common terms and weigh them in our conscience.

posted September 17, 2007 12:47 PM           

All I am saying here is that honesty has to be weighed in our conscience according to the various circumstances in life. As do all things. We have to consider the circumstance and ALWAYS the feelings of others.

Many times we find that people who say they believe in always being brutally honest to others do not feel the same way when others apply that same brutal honesty to them. Not saying you are like that. Just saying it is often the case. In many cases what we may feel while applying brutal honesty to others is quite different when it comes to our own feelings.

So we should always, "Do unto others as we would have others do unto you." The golden rule of conduct with others.

posted September 17, 2007 01:19 PM         

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Yes, I am questioning you as to why you used the term and I am questioning the term itself, Fayte.

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Even if it is a "common term" those common terms are not necessarily morally right and are often used to brainwash others into believing they are morally right.

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So yes, I do think we should always question common terms and weigh them in our conscience.

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Society does aid in the formation of the conscience to a large degree. Questioning in light of what the voice of our conscience feels is right is a very good thing to do so that we have an accurately formed conscience that often goes afoul of what society is telling us. It is questioning the herd mentality of society in light of our own conscience.

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Many times we find that people who say they believe in always being brutally honest to others do not feel the same way when others apply that same brutal honesty to them.

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Not saying you are like that.

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Just saying it is often the case. In many cases what we may feel while applying brutal honesty to others is quite different when it comes to our own feelings.

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So we should always, "Do unto others as we would have others do unto you." The golden rule of conduct with others.

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posted September 17, 2007 01:24 PM         

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Regarding the article you posted here on radical honesty, Fayte. I have read it. You sent it to my email box twice in one day in fact.

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posted September 17, 2007 01:25 PM           

I feel that manipulation is the most dishonest thing that people can do. And yet, to some degree we all use manipulation from time to time. Manipulation is something we all learn very early in life, as babies, as a means to get what we want or need from others. It is a tool we employ for that purpose. Governments, politicians, the media all use manipulation as a tool of control.

However, some people make manipulation a life style and anything that is a life style is an inward, often subconscious pattern we develop. People use manipulation as a means of controlling others. Sometimes in little ways of seeking nothing more than affirmation from others. Sometimes manipulation when used inflicts great harm on others. It is actually employes as a means of controlling others for our own use and to control all circumstances in our lives.

The root of all manipulation is to get our own wants and needs fulfilled. If we feel the need to control all things and all people manipulation becomes a lethal weapon.

posted September 17, 2007 01:37 PM         

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edited to add: Even though honesty is a highly esteemed virtue, like anything good it can also be used for evil purposes. We can use it for bad purposes while outwardly saying that we are just being honest while inwardly we may be manipulating the virtue of honesty for the purpose of deliberately hurting others.

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posted September 17, 2007 01:43 PM           

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I used it for a survey and purposely took extremes to choose from! You do act as if I invented the term and am offended at me because I used it!

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Was just wondering why you chose that phrase here, Fayte when normally you would have used the phrase "radical honesty."

Not questioning your intentions, Fayte. Just asking but here in your reply you do appear to be questioning my intentions. Sorry that is the way it comes off. I obviously am aware that you did not invent the phrase as I posted an article on it. I am aware of what takes place in society around me and common terms that are used.

So okay. Now I am questioning why the "extreme" is "purposely used?" Which is what I was orginally questioning.

I did not say or even imply that I am offended at your use of the phrase, Fayte. That may be your perception of my questioning the phrase but I was asking why "brutal honesty." Why not just honesty in general?

A world of just honest people would indeed be heaven, it would mean a world of people who have merged their egos to the Source and would therefore be a world of saints. Since human nature has not changed since the beginning of creation and the fall it is not likely to ever happen but we can dream. I do not think telepathy would serve to change human nature. It would instead lead to further more evil in the world when some people would use it for their own purpose as a weapon against others.

posted September 17, 2007 02:01 PM         

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Another food for thought. I don't have time right now to go into it in any detail but will toss it out and we can all think about it.

I feel that manipulation is the most dishonest thing that people can do. And yet, to some degree we all use manipulation from time to time. Manipulation is something we all learn very early in life, as babies, as a means to get what we want or need from others. It is a tool we employ for that purpose. Governments, politicians, the media all use manipulation as a tool of control.

However, some people make manipulation a life style and anything that is a life style is an inward, often subconscious pattern we develop. People use manipulation as a means of controlling others. Sometimes in little ways of seeking nothing more than affirmation from others. Sometimes manipulation when used inflicts great harm on others. It is actually employes as a means of controlling others for our own use and to control all circumstances in our lives.

The root of all manipulation is to get our own wants and needs fulfilled. If we feel the need to control all things and all people manipulation becomes a lethal weapon.

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continued my next post...

posted September 17, 2007 02:03 PM         

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You are right that when these types of people are asking those questions of others it is manipulation. However, they are manipulating because they need the affirmation due to lack of self-affirmation and most likely like it is with many manipulators they are not even consciously aware they are manipulating.

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I don't appreciate emotional manipulation no matter how innocent it may appear to be.

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EXACTLY! That extends into other areas too. It is very nerve wracking to be repeatedly asked; do you love me, do you like me, am I pretty, handsome etcetera, when one has repeatedly replied, yes to them. After awhile one begins to question why they need so many ego boosts, why they are fishing for compliments. Yeah it shows they are insecure but it still become tedious after awhile.
Or when one disagrees with another and they toss in out of nowheres. "you don't like/ love me anymore, you think I am stupid! I disgust you!"
I am like huh? Where the heck did that come from? Or the "no one likes/loves me anymore" after one has just got saying they do like /love the said sad person. It becomes in my mind a form of emotional manipulation. Worse if then they toss in, "no one loves me I should just kill myself" after they just finished crying on my shoulder and I comforted them. I mean, what am I to them, chopped liver? I also find the suicide threats whether meant or not, a form of emotional blackmail. I find all that very manipulative and disturbing and do not know how to deal with it. That has happened to me with several folks. I usually after a certain point tell them they need to see a therapist about their self esteem insecurity issues.
But that usually hurts their feelings too.

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posted September 17, 2007 02:04 PM         

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I feel that manipulation is the most dishonest thing that people can do. And yet, to some degree we all use manipulation from time to time.

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All people lie some of the time.

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posted September 17, 2007 02:52 PM         

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I used it for a survey and purposely took extremes to choose from! You do act as if I invented the term and am offended at me because I used it!

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Mirandee replied:

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Was just wondering why you chose that phrase here, Fayte when normally you would have used the phrase "radical honesty."

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It has become tedious and an exercise in futility and a waste of my time, and does indeed by the repeated questioning of my use of it in a simple survey...well it sure appears as a more than a mere wondering why I chose it. I have answered and re-answered not sure how many times up to now, and here I am answering yet again!
1. I used it because it exemplified extremes far better to most I felt than the term Radical Honesty.
It is also a far more commonly known phrase for ultimate honesty at all times.
2. It was for a survey concerning extreme and absolute choices in a hypothetical what if scenario.
3. It was intended to be a survey and food for thought;
not a long drawn hashing out of my motives or what you "think" are my motives, and my why fores of using the term,
nor was this thread meant for your dislike of the common term and my using it.

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Not questioning your intentions, Fayte. Just asking but here in your reply you do appear to be questioning my intentions. Sorry that is the way it comes off. I obviously am aware that you did not invent the phrase as I posted an article on it. I am aware of what takes place in society around me and common terms that are used.

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So okay. Now I am questioning why the "extreme" is "purposely used?" Which is what I was orginally questioning.

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I did not say or even imply that I am offended at your use of the phrase, Fayte. That may be your perception of my questioning the phrase but I was asking why "brutal honesty." Why not just honesty in general?

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Brutal honesty is:

1. Gratuitous (there is really no need to be honest)

2. Aggressive. You can say the same thing is many ways. Abrasiveness is not an essential part of honesty.

3. Repeated despite the obvious discomfort of the listener(s).

4. With the intent of causing pain or harm and with a clear enjoyment in inflicting them.

The definition of the word Brutal is:
1. befitting a brute:UNFEELING,CRUEL
2. HARSH,SEVERE
3. unpleasantly accurate

The word Brutalize means: 1. to make brutal
2. to treat brutally

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Again different perceptions and even definitions come into play to complicate our communications.

You said:

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What is described here regarding brutal honesty is the reason why that term "brutal" in the context of describing honesty disturbed me so much.

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However....
I see it as the bits I have highlighted:

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4. brutal - disagreeably direct and precise; "he spoke with brutal honesty"
direct - straightforward in means or manner or behavior or language or action; "a direct question"; "a direct response"; "a direct approach"

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I was asking why "brutal honesty." Why not just honesty in general?

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Now please...
Can we just drop it already?
You don't like the term Brutal Honesty.
I used it as a term of extremes in a survey.
Let it go already please.

posted September 17, 2007 06:03 PM         

These questions are compiled from interviews with Brad Blanton, Ph.D.

Q: What is lying and why is it stressful?
A: Lying is saying or withholding information in order to manipulate someone's opinion of you. It captures your attention by bringing your focus to the story you're telling, the image you're preserving, and the secret that you're hiding. You're no longer able to focus your attention wherever you want to focus it; you're only able to focus your attention on the lies you're telling and the secret you're keeping. This captured attention creates stress. In Radical Honesty, I attempt to demonstrate that this secrecy, withholding and lying is the primary source of modern human stress, the primary cause of most anxiety and of most depression.

Q: Does everyone lie?
A: Yes. We are always telling some kind of story, building a case for ourselves and trying to put on a best face. We're trying to prove we're good little boys and girls and that we're knowledgeable. Four years ago in a nationwide survey titled "The Day America Told the Truth," 93% of Americans admitted that they lie "regularly and habitually" at work and 35% admitted they have had or were currently having an affair which they were keeping secret from their mates.

Q: Is it possible to be completely honest without hurting a person's feelings?
A: Probably not. If you are in an ongoing relationship with any person there will probably be times when you hurt their feelings. Probably the most often used rationalization for lying is "I didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings." I recommend you hurt people's feelings and stay with them past the hurt. I also recommend that you offend people. We can all get over having our feelings hurt and we can get over being offended. These are not permanent conditions; they are feelings that come and go. On the other side of that reaction is a conversation in which your mutual honesty creates an intimacy not possible if you are hiding something for the sake of someone's feelings.

Q: What if I get mad at someone's reaction to my truth telling?
A: Tell them you are mad. Say "I resent you for..." and be specific about what visible, audible part of their reaction you resent. People can actually get furious at other people and get over it in 15 or 20 minutes. People can avoid being angry at someone else for 10 or 15 or 20 years, and if they actually got angry at them, they'd probably get over it in half an hour.

Q: Do you feel we have to be honest with ourselves before we can have a relationship with someone else?
A: You can't be "secretly" honest. Being "honest with yourself" is simply not separable from being honest with another. A person who says, "I was honest with myself, but decided not to tell..." is just another miserable liar and will have to suffer the consequences. Sharing honestly, with others present, is the way we can have an authentic relationship with another person.
<<<My note here>>>this can mean having friends, if friends get jealous
over one having other friends....this jealousy needs addressed and one should not hide or try to hide other friends from any jealous friend, or feel they must justify to the jealous friend(s) why they are making new friends>>>
Q: You require your therapy patients to go and tell the truth about things in their past to parents, siblings or spouses. Why?
A: What I've discovered in 25 years of working with people as a psychotherapist in Washington, DC, is that the primary source of their misery is lying. When I coached them to clean up their act and tell the truth they had a hard time going through it, but right on the other side of that hard time they were no longer depressed, they were no longer anxious-they were happier. They had their relationship worked out or a new job with a promotion. They had a brand new relationship with their spouse or a better relationship with their family. What actually occurs is that when you open up and share by telling the truth it frees you up from the jail of your own mind, which is the source of all human stress anyway. It's also just simply more efficient not to work so hard at all those poses.

Q: In the case of someone who was abused as a child, they are supposed to go back to their parents-and their parents are 70 years old- and tell them they resent the abuse?
A: You're damn right. I often have people bring parents in such cases into my office and tell them in front of me. We have two-hour sessions with the parent and the child. The child begins first by asking the parent to keep quiet and listen. Then the child tells them everything that they specifically remember that they resent and everything that they appreciate. If there's something that they did, like they stole the car at two a.m. when they were 16 and took it out and got a dent in the front fender and brought it back and covered it over and got by with it, I have them tell the truth about it and other things they got by with too. And then I coach the parents to tell the truth to their child about what they resent and what they appreciate. And it works out quite well. It works out for a renewed relationship between the parent and child. As long as there are hidden issues and agendas and feelings, you can never be yourselves with each other..

Q: Why do people have such a hard time being honest about sex?
A: For people to be honest about their sexuality is one of the big hurdles for everyone to get over because sexuality is such a taboo subject. I tell people when I'm attracted to them and they tell me when they are attracted to me to make sure that nothing is going on disacknowledged, that is, an avoidance of reporting feelings which is what we're trying to cure.

Q: Suppose you met someone whom you found unattractive. How do you handle that?
A: If the person's outstandingly ugly, then that's an issue I'm certainly going to bring up to talk about right off. I would say, "I think you look kind of ugly and this is what I think is ugly. I think that big wart on the left side of your face is probably something that puts people off and that you don't have much of a love life, is that true?" Then we'll have a conversation about it. That ugly person has probably always felt the negative unexpressed reaction from people. The idea is that they end up not avoiding the damn thing instead of living a life that's dancing on egg shells. They live life out loud and it's a whole lot better life.

Q: What if you want to be honest and you don't even know the truth yourself?
A: What's true, then, is that you don't know. So you say that. Sometimes it might be more honest to say "I don't know" where it's a real opening where you don't know, and you're willing to be with not knowing; that's where creativity comes from. But more often than not, when people say "I just don't know," it's a protest, it's a whine, it's a not wanting to take responsibility. An authentic "I don't know" is a great place to be.

Q: Is there one central point that you would like people to know about Radical Honesty?
A: I think the focus of what I have to say is not so much some moral taboo against lying as it is that I am in favor of people having fun in their lives, and having joyful, playful lives, serving each other. I'm not morally condoning telling the truth or saying that it's immoral to lie. I'm just talking about a pragmatic thing. If you go out and tell each other the truth you'll be happier. You're better nurtured in a world in which you're telling the truth than you are in a world in which you're cowering, hiding and lying.

posted September 17, 2007 08:21 PM         

Now please...
Can we just drop it already?
You don't like the term Brutal Honesty.
I used it as a term of extremes in a survey.
Let it go already please. Fatye

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posted September 17, 2007 08:58 PM         

Puts everyone on equal footing...

posted September 17, 2007 10:12 PM           

We differ in opinion and thought on the common term brutal honesty. That is all I am discussing here. I asked "why brutal honesty?" "Why not just honesty?" I gave my thoughts on brutal honesty. I gave a psychologist's thoughts on it. I stated that just because it is a common term doesn't make it morally right. I explained why I do not see it as morally right and why I felt that way. I explained what I felt was the psychology of that term and then checked psychology sites online to see if there was any validation for what I felt regarding the psychological aspects of brutal honesty. I do double check my thoughts with others who are more knowledgable than I in the field of psychology when I delve into that area of life and people.

You did answer my questions regarding why you chose that common term. Thank you for explaining that you chose that extreme on purpose. Though you did not explain why you chose that extreme on purpose. Usually when we do something consciously and on purpose there is a conscious reason for it. I may have missed that. If you did explain that I am sorry if I missed it and will go back and reread. I am most times during the day pressed for time when I read posts and for that reason do sometimes miss things.

I am not arguing who is wrong and who is right. I am just giving my thoughts on the common term "brutal honesty." I personally don't like the term brutal in context of honesty. Because I don't see that as containing love, understanding and compassion with others that we are being honest with. Also when to apply direct honesty with others and when not to is a question of ethics and how to apply that direct honesty with others is a question of conscience based on our own moral value system.

When it comes to conscience that is no man's land. A person's conscience is a matter between the person and God. It is not for others to direct our conscience and try to force our conscience to be in alignment with theirs. Our opinions - what we think and feel - comes from our own moral value system and conscience which hopefully we have not let society form for us but instead worked on informing ourselves along the lines of spirituality, through meditation and prayer, questioning and reading spiritual things. Because we all have differently formed and informed consciences we are not always going to agree on certain things that others and society as a whole tell us. For that reason just because "brutal honesty" is a common held notion or term does not make it right in eyes of some people. We do not have to follow the herd mentality if it does not align with our conscience.

According to my conscience it is never morally right to be insensitive to the feelings of others just to tell them what we may honestly feel to be right. Because what we honestly feel to be right may been seen as wrong to the party we are directing our brutal honesty at. I used to be at times brutally honest with people. I discovered it not only never works but it is morally the wrong thing to do. Honesty yes. But honesty with love as it's basis and tempered with compassion and understanding. In fact, I learned this valuable lesson right here on the boards of LL from HSC. He said that to all of us and he was very, very right. He got hurt badly by our use of brutal honesty. Honesty should never hurt the other person. Because when it does it hurts us as well. That is, if we all truly do believe we actually are one.

posted September 17, 2007 10:33 PM         

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Though you did not explain why you chose that extreme on purpose. Usually when we do something consciously and on purpose there is a conscious reason for it. I may have missed that. If you did explain that I am sorry if I missed it and will go back and reread.

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Was just wondering why you chose that phrase here, Fayte when normally you would have used the phrase "radical honesty."

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It has become tedious and an exercise in futility and a waste of my time, and does indeed by the repeated questioning of my use of it in a simple survey...well it sure appears as a more than a mere wondering why I chose it. I have answered and re-answered not sure how many times up to now, and here I am answering yet again!
1. I used it because it exemplified extremes far better to most I felt than the term Radical Honesty.
It is also a far more commonly known phrase for ultimate honesty at all times.
2. It was for a survey concerning extreme and absolute choices in a hypothetical what if scenario.
And another:
You asked:

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I was asking why "brutal honesty." Why not just honesty in general?

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Again I will try to make it clear......
1. I used it because it exemplified extremes far better to most I felt than the term Radical Honesty.
It is also a far more commonly known phrase for ultimate honesty at all times. No pussy footing, hem hawing or walking on eggshells etcetera.
2. It was for a survey concerning extreme and absolute choices in a hypothetical what if scenario.
3. It was intended to be a survey and food for thought;

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Yes, I am questioning you as to why you used the term and I am questioning the term itself, Fayte.

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I used it for a survey and purposely took extremes to choose from!

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Have I answered your question yet? If not then please rephrase exactly what you want to know.

posted September 18, 2007 01:58 AM           

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I may have missed that. If you did explain that I am sorry if I missed it and will go back and reread. I am most times during the day pressed for time when I read posts and for that reason do sometimes miss things...Me

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posted September 18, 2007 09:05 AM         

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Actually that is not me who you are quoting and it is not my outlook, Fayte. The article was written by a pychologist. It's his take on it. Though, yes, I do concur with what he said about brutal honesty.

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