posted September 19, 2007 02:16 AM         

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Yet you take it on faith that there is someone on the other side of your computer screen don't you? I mean, we could all be machines. Not real at all. What evidence do you have that we are not programmed robots?

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Uuuuuh, you're making me nervous...

There's a difference, though. I can accept that things in the world work without knowing exactly how (the Internet, like your example - it could be just a bunch of tubes!), but I don't build a superstition to explain it and then base my life around it. I don't kill others for not buying into it, or mutilate my children to appease it, or forgo free-thought to avoid its ire. I take nothing about it on faith; I just realize that I don't have all the answers, and, while that may be uncomfortable, I realize that being uncomfortable is ok. And it's an incentive to learn and question.

Much, much better to be ignorant and realize it and work to remedy it than to take something on faith and leave it at that. Faith may give comfort, but that's all it's ever done for humanity and comfort is stagnation.

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Since that is what all Christianity is based on don't you think it might be a little bit insulting to the billions of people on this planet that are followers of this system of belief for you to say he never existed?

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Personally, I think people make too much of being insulted. You mentioned something above about how it was nice that I didn't jump down your throat at a perceived insult. But why should I? If that's my reaction when confronted with the truth (and it's true I'm often snippy and sarcastic) then I need to get the hell over myself. Possibly the analogy doesn't scale well, but I think it is valid. Truth is often unpleasant, sometimes horribly so, but that doesn't mean it should be hidden to protect people's delicate sensibilities.

A great quote attributed to Jesus (and I think a lot of the teachings in the NT are beautiful, whatever the source) is that everyone should 'seek the truth.' Truth WILL set you free, and, if its an oppressive, outdated religion you need to be set free from, truth will do the job. No reason to be insulted, and if someone is, it says more about them than it does about me, I think.

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I think that is what DL is saying when she stated it's one thing for you personally to not believe in Jesus, you don't have to, but it's just not cool to cut down the whole belief system of Christianity.

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Well, um, I guess it's an opportunity to forgive?

Kidding. But I reject the notion that it's wrong to present controversial information or disrupt someone's comfortable paradigm, just the opposite; I would say it's wrong to reject any information at all, no matter how uncomfortable.

posted September 19, 2007 02:21 AM         

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No, the Buddha would be Siddhartha Gautama so yes I think it is a comparable analogy. He may not have a god-like status but he has many similar qualities and is a central figure of Buddhism.

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posted September 19, 2007 03:06 AM         

Also you can't blame the whole religion on what some fanatics do. Not Christianity, or Islam or any other religion. That is also narrow minded.

Sounds from what you said ( cause Christians don't have any circumcism rites -that's the Jewish faith ) that it is not just Christianity but organized religions in general that you don't believe. Which is fine. Everyone has a right to choose what they believe or don't believe. I personally do not believe in reincarnation but that is an after death thing and no one knows for sure what happens until we die. So regarding anything after death all we have are concepts.

Faith IS comforting. Believe me it helps you through an awful lot of really bad things in life. But it's more than just comforting. It is a deep seated soul belief. More than just a belief. A soul experience.

posted September 19, 2007 03:28 AM         

-kyle

posted September 19, 2007 03:39 AM         

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Ah, but you see, it is truth to those who have who have sought and found it, Johnny.

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I strongly disagree with the premise that truth is subjective. I don't think there's any possible way to prove that it is, but it can easily be proven not to be:

"Truth is not relative."

There, that's my truth, and it disproves the subjectivity of itself.

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Also you can't blame the whole religion on what some fanatics do. Not Christianity, or Islam or any other religion. That is also narrow minded.

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Eh, I don't really think so. Abrahamic religions tend to encourage zealotry; 'By their fruits ye shall know them,' and all that, and I'm sure we both can easily remember at least a dozen quotes from the Koran and Bible to support that. And don't even get into the Talmud, omg.

Sure, there are good people who subscribe to organized religion (some in this thread, for instance ), but I'd suggest they're good despite their religion rather than because of it. And would be just as good if religion had never been invented.

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Sounds from what you said that it is not just Christianity but organized religions in general that you don't believe.

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Was that unclear? Sorry, yes. I'm not purely anti-Christian.

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( cause Christians don't have any circumcism rites -that's the Jewish faith )

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You might be surprised how many Christians would disagree. But Muslims also are lucky enough to get this inflicted on them, so it's more widespread than just Jews.

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My soul knows truth. My soul validates truth. My soul knows Jesus the Christ. It is more than just a thought pattern or just a belief. It's a soul experience. One which I cannot explain in words.

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Well, I don't disbelieve you. I wonder if this is an experience that is exclusive to Christians, or one that is patent to humanity in general? I would bet that people throughout history have had that same soul-experience, regardless of what mythos they attributed it to. Maybe that truth you're tapping into goes deeper than religion?

posted September 19, 2007 04:43 AM         

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Just kidding. Take comfort that I'm going to burn forever and ever and ever for this.

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posted September 19, 2007 07:46 AM         

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Personally, I think people make too much of being insulted. You mentioned something above about how it was nice that I didn't jump down your throat at a perceived insult. But why should I? If that's my reaction when confronted with the truth (and it's true I'm often snippy and sarcastic) then I need to get the hell over myself. Possibly the analogy doesn't scale well, but I think it is valid. Truth is often unpleasant, sometimes horribly so, but that doesn't mean it should be hidden to protect people's delicate sensibilities.

A great quote attributed to Jesus (and I think a lot of the teachings in the NT are beautiful, whatever the source) is that everyone should 'seek the truth.' Truth WILL set you free, and, if its an oppressive, outdated religion you need to be set free from, truth will do the job. No reason to be insulted, and if someone is, it says more about them than it does about me, I think.

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And how do you know that what you are speaking is the truth? Because when I really think about it; I haven't been been presented with any proof that Jesus didn't exist. In fact, the evidence that he did exist seems alot stronger.

And yes, people do have a right to feel insulted by such claims and if that bothers you then you shouldn't be suprised. Its like yelling a racial slur in a crowd full minorities and not expecting to be reprimanded,harmed, or so on.

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You might be surprised how many Christians would disagree. But Muslims also are lucky enough to get this inflicted on them, so it's more widespread than just Jews.

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"Infilcted"? Sorry, I don't really remember anyone getting mutilated as a result of male cuircumsicion unless the person had tricky fingers and cut off something they weren't supposed to.

Sattvic,

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Buddha or Siddhartha Gowthama, is considered to be the 9th incarnation of the Lord as per Hindhusim, and the followers of His path are Buddhists.

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posted September 19, 2007 07:52 AM         

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But my point is this: he is generally accepted to have existed, correct?

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Yes.

posted September 19, 2007 09:09 AM         

I have never understood why religion is a right and wrong belief system. As a child I learned from the heated arguments- read fights between my parents and their friends that the subject should not be brought up in friendly social situations because a fight was likely to ensue.

I too question. and still do not understand the defensive posture of believers in any faith to questions or comments that might not jibe w/ theirs. Faith is faith. No right or wrong about it. It is only when Humans in interpretation of the teachings of their faith feel compelled to commit atrocities on believers of another faith system. To show them they are wrong. I have a real problem w/ that. But as a realist know that it will never change.

I have enjoyed reading this, especially since it is refreshing not to see verbal blood spilled.

posted September 19, 2007 10:20 AM         

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My soul knows Jesus the Christ.

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How can you know someone you never met? Is it because a book told you too?

I never let my soul yearn for someone/something...especially if I don't know whether it exists or not.

If you cannot explain the feeling in your soul then how are you sure you know what it is in the first place?

posted September 19, 2007 10:54 AM         

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How can you know someone you never met?

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Have you seen light? Have you seen energy? Have you seen wind?

It is the experience, not the without but the within. And what do you mean "someone"? God is not "someone" but The Source - The Energy - that is in everything and anything, people do connect with it in different ways - that is all.

posted September 19, 2007 01:12 PM         

Moreover, it is a progression of spiritual journey when the answers comes to you - which enables us to as the right questions.

posted September 19, 2007 07:16 PM         

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Because when I really think about it; I haven't been been presented with any proof that Jesus didn't exist.

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Proving a negative isn't my objective. My points, as I've stated emphatically, are twofold: first, there is no credible historical evidence that this miracle-worker ever lived. Historians far more informed than you or I back this statement (see the quotes at the end of the last page). Second, the evidence for Jesus' life is invariably hearsay evidence from scholars and historians who, chronologically speaking, could never have known Jesus, or accounts from his apostles that we know basically nothing about, and who are probably entirely fictitious persons themselves.

No one in this thread has done anything to counter either of these statements, only stated that they don't want to hear about it, don't care, etc. Until someone in this thread or any historian anywhere in the world presents credible proof of Jesus' actual existence, I will stand by my position that it is intellectually dishonest to assert his reality on faith and dogma alone.

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Its like yelling a racial slur in a crowd full minorities and not expecting to be reprimanded,harmed, or so on.

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Ridiculous comparison; it's nothing of the sort. Will you also be offended if I tell you that our ancestors were primates and we are, too? Like I said, you taking offense says much about you and nothing about me. Reality cares nothing for human egoism.

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"Infilcted"? Sorry, I don't really remember anyone getting mutilated as a result of male cuircumsicion...

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Eh, the one subject that I get a little emotional about. Please, if you haven't researched this important matter thoroughly, don't make statements like that.

This is exactly what I mean by people taking things on faith, rather than questioning, and how it is so incredibly harmful.

Dulce Luna, please check this out. "The Case Against Circumcision," by Dr. Paul Fleiss, a Jewish MD
http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/circumcision/against-circumcision.html

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Circumcision started in America during the masturbation hysteria of the Victorian Era, when a few American doctors circumcised boys to punish them for masturbating. Victorian doctors knew very well that circumcision denudes, desensitizes, and disables the penis.

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A good intro on the subject. Nature does not make mistakes; people do.

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I don't find anything wrong with people who believe in him or anything else on faith alone.

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What if they kill or mutilate in the name of that faith? Nothing wrong, even then?

posted September 19, 2007 07:17 PM         

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Have you seen light? Have you seen energy? Have you seen wind?

It is the experience, not the without but the within. And what do you mean "someone"? God is not "someone" but The Source - The Energy - that is in everything and anything, people do connect with it in different ways - that is all.

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Well said.

"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."

posted September 19, 2007 09:04 PM         

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Nature does not make mistakes; people do.

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posted September 19, 2007 09:16 PM         

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Circumcision started in America during the masturbation hysteria of the Victorian Era, when a few American doctors circumcised boys to punish them for masturbating. Victorian doctors knew very well that circumcision denudes, desensitizes, and disables the penis.

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They didn't just limit themselves to male circumcision, those compassionate doctors were also busy mutilating female genitals as well.

posted September 19, 2007 09:22 PM         

This is NOnSense...

each is responsible for what they do!

posted September 19, 2007 09:25 PM         

The male prepuce isn't a genetic mutation, though. Every male of every mammalian species on the planet is born with a foreskin, and to suggest that the human male is the only creature on earth requiring immediate surgical "correction" at birth is utterly stupid.

posted September 19, 2007 09:45 PM         

Yeah, GoatGirl, pretty awful... Here's a quote from physician John Harvey Kellogg (co-inventor of the cornflake) in his 1877 book, "Plain facts for old and young:"

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"Covering the organs with a cage has been practiced with entire success. A remedy which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision... The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anęsthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases. (p 295)"

In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement, and preventing the recurrence of the practice in those whose will-power has become so weakened that the patient is unable to exercise entire self-control. (p 297)"

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