posted January 21, 2009 12:43 AM            

quote:

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Again, earliy miscarriages do not indicate the unborn would have suffer from birth defect in some way. That is very bigoted.

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I know damn well that many miscarriages were/are NOT always DUE TO FOETAL ABNORMALITY!
I am personally aware of fibroids, luteal phase defect, and other medical issues which can cause miscarriage and lie with the mother, not the embryo/foetus.

I know too about the disappearing twin syndrome personally.
The ultrasound revealed 2 embryos at 9 weeks. Then by 11 1/2 weeks one was reabsorbed.
I know too in another of my pregnancies, about losing one twin at 11 weeks..by actual bloody miscarriage and testing proving it was miscarried...and not sensing a soul presence yet in either...then to feel/sense a soul in the surviving twin which lived in me until 13 weeks...then died. I felt its agony.

Testing showed no abnormalities in either twin.
My fibroids killed them and placental insufficiency.
And I grieved even for the ones lost before 12 weeks...never having a soul yet, only basic biological life.
I wonder who would have been born to me if I had not endured so many miscarriages.
And still births. A nightmare.
To have a moving, soul bearing being within one's womb, to feel it, sense it, hear it, and to feel it die...it is a horrible thing to endure. To see its little dark dead form once "born"....It still brings me anguished memories seeing it lying so small and warm, then cold and dead in my hands.
Two times I experienced late ones like that.
Another time another one died inside of my womb at 16 weeks but I did not expel the poor little corpse until 20 weeks.

I have experienced such things and feel I have a valid say on the issue.
And each time I read of abortions being done after 12 weeks, or even earlier, it hurt so bad because here I was wanting another child but others were getting rid of the potential child.

Please stop judging me.

posted January 21, 2009 12:55 AM            

quote:

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Isn't it possible, that the souls themselves opt out?

EDIT: By that I mean, well, as it says, but by their own choice - for whatever reason, however it works - as opposed to anything negative, etc, behind it. Or that, again for whatever reason, that was what was meant to happen? That the child/soul brings some kind of learning to the mother through that? I don't know. I'm asking questions, looking for answers. It's hard because it is such a sensitive subject.

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posted January 21, 2009 02:52 AM              

quote:

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was no support offered from medical establishments e.g. did they not get them in touch with some sort of support group?

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well, we dont really have such support unless its a very common disablility. I for one dont knoew anyone in our entire extended family or even acquaintances who has a bay bron without a limb.

to heck with support, what killed the mother was the inferiority that her daughter will feel every day surrounded by whole individuals , how she feel less worthy and depressed. How her spirit would get crushed on a daily basis in a world that is in no way Disability sensitive.

Heck we have doictors who recommend abortions when the foetus looks like it MIGHT not be all perfect !!!!

' What are you , Blind ???"

" Hey retard, get this... "

" What are you deaf ? "

" He is soooo demented , hihihi "

posted January 21, 2009 04:10 AM            

I have just noticed that you are in India - I was talking from a UK perspective and I understand, but don't think I'm making assumptions here, that the culture towards any sort of disability is quite different?

People can be very cruel.

I think I try and view all life (including potential life) as 'sacred' - without inherent respect for living things we cannot hope to begin to develop spiritually. However, I think with abortion it needs to be viewed on a case by case process. No one would want a child born that was the result of rape or abuse - how would they feel finding out that information? The choice must lie with the individual. I, though, stand by what I've said in earlier posts - good, thorough and sensible sex ed is essential; these so called 'Christians' who try and hide what sex is and turn it into something 'sinful' are causing more damage than good. Where does it say in the Bible that sex should not be discussed? Surely being a good and responsible parent (as many Christians say the Bible tells them to be) means educating their offspring in a manner that means they can function safely in MODERN society. How appalling for a teenager to suddenly be in a situation where they find out what sex is for the first time - and its too late? No, it is madness. And the hypocrasy of those 'nice' families covering it up and making their kids have abortions anyway.....it makes me very angry.

------------------
Out of clutter find simplicity.

From dischord find harmony.

In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity.

posted January 21, 2009 08:39 AM            

quote:

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No one would want a child born that was the result of rape or abuse - how would they feel finding out that information?

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posted January 21, 2009 08:59 AM              

quote:

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Venus - my apologies if my post seemed insensitive....
I have just noticed that you are in India - I was talking from a UK perspective and I understand, but don't think I'm making assumptions here, that the culture towards any sort of disability is quite different?

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posted January 22, 2009 10:09 PM            

My condolences to your family, and I wish all the best to the involved parties's future, and I do hope your traumatized relatives, including the little girl with a hand missing, will cope well in time

To be continued...

D

posted January 22, 2009 10:10 PM            

LEXX said:

quote:

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(originally from Mezzoelf1)No one would want a child born that was the result of rape or abuse - how would they feel finding out that information?

(in LEXX's own words)No one?
I guess I am an oddity then.
I would not abort one such as that. I would tell him/her the truth in time, and let the child know I loved him/her.

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LEXX I'm with you. You are NOT an oddity, and you are not alone. I second what you had to say about this.

To be continued...

D

posted January 22, 2009 10:13 PM            

quote:

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Those are not all my words.
Some is medical fact and or theory.

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quote:

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(originally my own words being quoted by LEXX)LEXX said:
quote:If the baby does not continue to thrive and grow,
in most cases the woman's body will naturally expel the baby through miscarriage.

(In LEXX's words)

Note.."most" NOT all.

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I would say some, but not most. "Facts" are not necessarily "facts", just as "truths" are not necessarily "truths"; my truths are not definitely your truths. One's truths only become another's truths when the other person has gone through similar experiences or meanwhile achieves a state of a different level of comprehension. What are perceived as "facts" can be proven as mistakes at a later time. As for medical theory, it is similar with scientific theories about this planet's life span, and the origins and the predicted end of the universe and all universes, theories can turn out to be absolutely misleading.

To be continued...

D

posted January 22, 2009 10:14 PM            

quote:

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Note again the word "believe"...which indicates opinion NOT a fact.
Those are not my words.
That is from the article.
Notice too..it is all theory, not fact!
See the bolded bits above please!

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Thank you for clarifying, LEXX.

To be continued...

posted January 22, 2009 10:15 PM            

quote:

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(originally my own words being quoted by LEXX) Besides, justifying abortion (a different topic from that of miscarriages) by deciding to terminate an unborn child with disabilities is discrimination. This is not justifiable.

(LEXX's own words) That is YOUR personal belief/opinion...not a fact.

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It depends on the thin line between what you term as a belief and what you term as a fact. When a belief is adopted by the majority of population, it becomes a "fact". When a fact is dismissed as nonfactual, it becomes a false belief to the masses- such as, when the fact that this planet was round was discovered, and the fact the sun orbits this planet was discovered, these later recognized facts were regarded as nonfacts. As I mentioned above, my truths are not necessarily your truths, and vice versa. Similarly, "my facts" are not surely "your facts". Whether my quoted statement is a fact or not is another question. You simply dismissed my comment as a nonfact, but merely "my own personal belief", because you did not accept it. There is a fine line between what is a belief and what is a fact. In truth, many presently established facts are unreliable. Many of which are false beliefs.

To be continued...

posted January 22, 2009 10:16 PM            

quote:

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Then see it this way since logic offends you.
I do not think a kind God, or fate, or whatever would spiritually subject a soul to a death whilst in the womb, nor the mother be subjected to having a corpse inside of her body....without a very justifiable and yes, logical reason for such terrible experiences to be endured by potential mother and unborn child.

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Logic does not offend me. To be honest, we desparately need moderate application to logic when it comes to emotional overreactions, emotional outbursts and many forms of learning. However, too much dependency on logical deduction only ends up clouding the intuitive faculty and the basic but higher level or knowing, and instinctual reckoning.

To be continued...

posted January 22, 2009 10:17 PM            

The Gods are not always kind. They, too, possess their own shortcomings. They are not necessarily enlightened, but on their own way of evolution as well. They do not govern the realm of humans as most people think they do; before the pieces of their souls incarnate as whole beings, reunite, and regain their powers, good fortune or calamities are out of their control. The Gods are not always kind, even if they are being kind at one time, it does not mean the human condition is entirely in their own hands. As for fate, or what I personally would term as destiny, and how you have talked about destiny's effects on pregnancies or the natural terminations of those, what is being called "fate" or "destiny" is actually the universal forces, which are very intangible and rarely thought of by human beings. The universal forces are mysterious, bewildered humans at times do not understand their complex mechanisms and over-simplified those with "logic". The entire universe, the Gods, and the rest of the inhabitants are not subject to logical arrangements, but a higher level of subtle universal forces. To rely on logic on all occasions and to justify certain phenomena or to dismiss certain other phenomena or possibilities with logic is against the gift of one's instincts, intuition and path to in-depth understanding of the enigmatic and sophisticated human condition and transcendence. I am not offended by logic. An excess of logic only blocks the true insight. Moderate logic is still needed for various day-to-day situations, and many of the learning processes.

To be continued...

posted January 22, 2009 10:19 PM            

quote:

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"Sigh"
The article did Not say it was a fact...
and nor did I.
And....because it was not intended as a fact statement...which oddly YOU took it as they meant/or I meant it to be fact...
which LOL! is not a fact....
there was no bigotry shown.

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Again, thank you for clarifying, LEXX. Please do not be easily offended by misunderstandings and overwhelmed by emotions.

I've read your description on your misfortunate pregnancies and birth(s), and I empathize with you.

quote:

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Please stop judging me.

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I'm sorry to hear that you felt judged.

To be continued...

posted January 22, 2009 10:21 PM            

Humans require oxygen.

A biped has two legs.

2+2=4

Earth has more ocean than exposed land on its surface.

Earth has one moon.

A cat is not a bird.

A fact only popular by majority acceptance may or may not be a fact.

posted January 22, 2009 10:21 PM            

Even though recognized by the majority of the general population (or fewer than such), certain "facts" can be dangerously misleading, and this surely applies to theories. Again, there is a thin line between beliefs and facts, and either can miseducate any given individual.

Back to the subject matter- I am against aborting a life form with evident life force, regardless of the debates on the timing of the arrival of the unborn child's soul. Besides, the arrival of the baby's soul is not as rigid as many would assume. The timing is never rigid. It is astoundingly much earlier than most would like to think.

P.S. 1 Owing to the cyber traffic jam and possible glitches, I had to cut my original message into several posts.

P.S. 2 The medical school library will be closed during the Lunar New Year holiday for roughly a little less than a fortnight, and I will be back to the forums on a Tuesday night, ET, in about a fortnight.

D

posted January 23, 2009 12:13 AM            

Thank you, LEXX!