posted April 26, 2009 01:15 PM         

quote:

---

There are also suplements which you can take for B-12 specially.

---

quote:

---

When I was a child, I used to love meat. I could not stand vegetables. However, when I thought about where meat came from it affected me deeply enough to want to change. And I acquired a taste for vegetables!

A body that is used to junk food craves junk food...get the body used to natural food and gradually the body will balance itself to those foods, those will be the ones craved.

---

posted April 27, 2009 09:03 AM         

Love the Pictures!!

Thank you for contributing.

quote:

---

A body that is used to junk food craves junk food...get the body used to natural food and gradually the body will balance itself to those foods, those will be the ones craved.

The same goes with meat.

I used to love meat as a kid, now I don't. I don't even like eating fish any more.

The smell of red meat cooking makes me want to vomit

---

Everyone I know who has given it up,
and tasted it again, after abstaining,
says it tasted gamey and strange.

And, in any case, I think,
when you listen to the Soul,
the Soul will tell you what it needs,
and will over-rule the body.

posted April 27, 2009 09:13 AM         

I'm glad you are Vegan,
and that you see the horror.

But I dont understand how you can
be so politically correct about it.

It is all well and good
to respect people's choices,
but there are limits to this.

We do not respect the Nazi's right
to round up Jews and gas them en masse.

We would not be delicate
in addressing this matter
when speaking to a Nazi,
or a Nazi sympathizer.

The horror of the crime is such
that we cannot simply overlook it,
and chalk it up to their free choice.

We intervene.
We try to stop it.
We go to war, if we have to,
for the sake of innocent life.

Even in a time when the majority
has not awakened to their crimes,
and we who blow the whistle
will be seen as extremists,
there is still a duty to speak.

posted May 18, 2009 12:10 AM         

quote:

---

Of course vegans are not Herbivores.
Humans are Omnivores.

---

Indeed, vegetarians and vegans are not herbivores, as you previously repeated.

But NO, humans are NOT decidedly omnivores.

Humans have choice. Animals don't. We feed our cattle with dead pigs, dead chickens, chicken feces, and the helpless herbivorous animals are turned into carnivores. Worse still, we even feed our cattle with remnants of dead cows, making them cannibals. Animals have no choice, providing they are under human manipulation. However, human beings do have choice to be vegetarians, omnivores or cannibals or anything else. Humans are NOT decidedly omnivores. Human can choose to be vegetarians if they want to. As for the minority who have certain medical conditions which make the individuals unable to make the transition from being meat-eaters to vegetarianism, the minority does not represent the entire humankind. Again, saying "Humans are Omnivores" is not a well-thought-of statement. Humans do have choice.

LTT,

A heartfelt thank you for contributing to this thread with those beautiful graphics with vital and inspirational messages on them, and sharing your personal experience.

Valus (formerly HSC),

This thread of yours has turned out to be truly thought-provoking and has attracted people to voice their opinions on human diets and ethics. The thread ends up pretty constructive. Thank you for starting this thread.

D

posted May 18, 2009 05:48 PM         

Valus- I'm sorry you cannot understand my approach. I like to voice my opinion, but I just let other people be.

We all have our differents paths to walk on, and no one is better than the other. I don't try (anymore) to push others to think what I feel it's the "way to be".

I've learnt in my way, many things. And one of those is tolerance.

In my daily life, I like interacting with people from all walks of life, and sharing ideas and opinions about the world and lifestyles (being Vegan/Vegetarian is just one more option).

I always like to give information if they are willing to know "why I don't eat meat". And put out the details of the so called "farm-animals". I invite friends to my house (which are meat eaters) and make great tasty vegan plates so to show them that we can make delicious foods, etc. Despite the fact I hate cooking. Hehe.

I just don't go pushing around people to turn them into vegetarians. Because it usually NEVER works that way, trying to force ideas into people, just brings the opposite reactions in them.

posted May 20, 2009 12:49 AM         

I tolerate it, too...
mostly because i dont want to be
hippocritical or unpopular,
but, deep down, i know that
i am taking the easy way out,
and being complicit.

We are talking about torture and murder.

Tolerance is high on most lists of values,
but higher than NOT tolerating atrocities??

If we were talking about human children,
who were being rounded up, penned in, abused,
and bred in captivity for the purpose of slaughter,
would you still be promoting "tolerance"?

There is a limit.
Tolerance becomes complicity.

What you are really arguing is that
the suffering of these animals is not
important enough to make a fuss over.

You know that, if they were children,
you would not tolerate it -- or be
friends with anybody who did tolerate it,
regardless of whether or not your
decision affected their eating habits.

As a matter of priniciple,
you would not stand for it.

So,...

What are these animals??

Are they like children??

Do we really care??

posted May 20, 2009 11:14 AM         

Comparing human children to animals does not help prove your point as we do not view these things as equal in our society.

Maybe you are suggesting we should?

And it's condescending to assume people are just being compliant when they don't kick up the fuss you suggest they should over this issue.

D,

Love your post. I feel exactly the same way.

posted May 20, 2009 04:51 PM         

I feel very much for the animals, that's why I turned into a Vegan. So yes, I don't think you are "more moved" by this cause than me.

We just seem to have very different approches. And it's fine with me, "to each their own".

I'm not challenging you.

And I believe we all have different missions in this lifetime, and there are plenty of things to take care and/or fix in this planet. However, I'm not one to raise the flag of fight or judgement if other people do not perceive animals or nature as I do.

I respect and I love animals (nature as a whole); however I use my car, electricity and other activities that are harmful for the environment.
Should I beat myslef over this? - and should I go out to the streets claiming everyone to be murders because they eat meat?

No.

Because not you, not me, not anyone is so enlighten and perfect to be able to point the finger at others.
"The one who is free of sin throw the 1st stone" - said Jesus, and no one did.

So, what I am saying is, I always try to give a helping hand to the animals and those who need it because it's something that flows naturally.
But I won't judge others that do not. Or "catalougue" them as disposable people. My friends and some family members that are meat eaters are wonderful people with loving hearts. They just have different perceptions and eating habits. And as long as they respect my lifestyle, I'll respect them.

posted May 20, 2009 06:57 PM         

It is important to reduce our consumption of animals (and our consumption PERIOD) due to the horrible living conditions inflicted on the animals in order to produce the volume necessary to sustain our population at the rate we consume. We all need to take small steps towards reducing our consumption, recycling products, and championing small farmers and their products while shunning corporations who destroy our land and resources. I think that is obvious to any thinking person but we forget. If a little guilt makes the difference then I'm all for the guilt. I don't think it has anything to do with the choice to eat meat, actually. My grandfather had a farm and we ate eggs from the chickens and butter from the cows and when Wilber the bull grew old, he turned into hamburgers. My 8 year old heart was quite upset about that but Wilber had a good, happy life as king of the barnyard. Most cows also get to live a happy life on farms so I will return the favor to Valus by reminding him that eating chicken might be the most cruel thing since the chickens are kept most inhumanely, right?

(He'll have an interesting argument for this, I'm guessing... )

posted May 21, 2009 04:47 AM         

quote:

---

Preaching about vegetarianism is just ridiculous because only those who self-sustain are not hypocrites and therefore no one wants to listen

---

Heartily agree.

posted May 21, 2009 01:03 PM         

Oh, and not forgetting to direct attention to your martyrdom and "don't shoot the messenger" status.

It is extremist to compare the torture of human children to the killing of animals for food. Who were, in most cases in fact, only born into the world for the purpose of food.

It is hypocritical to say how we should all feel bad and stop practicing our hedonistic animal killing meat eating ways when you yourself admit to doing it. Messenger or not, you have to admit that calling you out on it and not having as much respect for what you are saying due to this fact is warranted.

And I would say the same thing to anyone who was making the argument you are making, I am not pointing the finger at you, you pointed it at everyone else first.

Needless to say, I think Diabla has eloquently and beautifully (as well as empathetically and graciously) what is as close to my personal views on the subject as possible.

Her words are far more compassionate and understanding than most others on this thread.

D,

posted May 21, 2009 10:02 PM         

"my argument must therefor appear to them as extremist -- this goes without saying; if I thought it was already a popular view, I would not be wasting my breath to voice it. Look, we all have a million strategies to avoid looking directly at the consequences of our actions... Regardless of how it makes you feel, or who you blame for showing it to you"
You punk A rebel rock star, you. ♥
It makes my Mars in Aqua content. We really do have these strategies. I would take the argument further saying we are all food for each other in an energy sense. A brilliant Aries (who I used to call The Father of Lies because I liked to blatantly suggest he was evil, very evil) once said to me that the only ones who matter are our own and I thought (well after I thought he was horrible and uncaring and selfish and whatever else I judged him as atm) how existentially that is a pretty good argument. If everything is just energy changing form... than really, the only tragedy is in our mind and therefore the tragedy we experience personally. Otherwise, everything else is - just changing form.

We would have to subscribe then to the point of view that the form can be manipulated by the circumstances in which it changes or the combinations of energy that cause or force its transformation (such as a violent death creating an energy that is twisted or something of a poison which isn't that hard to believe since as above so below we do that in factories every day...) so keeping animals in tiny boxes for our use (eggs) their entire lives would create a really sad energy to say the least, which would eventually come back and hurt the Whole Organism which is Us... so therefore just as a matter of self preservation this needs to be an issue we look at in our lives.

I think the issue of which energies are "sacred" (Monty Python's ♫Every Sperm Is Sacred♫ plays in the background) is a slippery slope. All animals, but making a hierarchy where fish and foul are lesser (well, if there is a hierarchy then animals are lesser and so are some people and all people to some being perhaps...) and frogs and insects next and then plants but maybe some plants are better than some insects like mosquitoes, I mean...etc... it only stops when we become pure energy and don't need to physically do ANYTHING anymore (like walk on bugs and grass). We just think. We just ARE. We.

But aren't we here to enjoy and experience life? And does our energy evolve in stages... (one life you are mosquito, next life steak, next life tortured lonely human like myself who sometimes wishes she was steak...) We all have to face different pains, whether it is daily torment or a life of peace with one tortured day or a life constantly on the run from predators or a life constantly on the hunt because you are ravishingly huuuungry.

Anyway, you all get my drift. If you don't, read it again, tis good shrooot.
Guess my brain hasn't rotted out.

posted May 22, 2009 12:07 AM         

quote:

---

Telling people how to respond to you now? LOL

---

Its like a dance, Ghani.
You can't just make up your own steps.
If my argument is that this is murderous,
it makes no sense to turn it around
and "point the finger" at me for,
essentially, testifying to a murder.
Intolerance, hippocrisy, preaching, guilting..
Can we agree that these are crimes which
pale in comparison to torture and murder?
So, it is only logical for you to argue,
at this point, that it is not torture or murder.
It is not my fault if you do not see this,
and I wont apologize for pointing it out.
I'm not going to just argue in circles here.
We've been over and over most of these points,
You'll excuse me for wanting to move it along,
and trying to keep all of our eyes on the ball,
rather than just repeating my defenses to the same
tired, unsupported, and irrelevant character assaults.

Meanwhile, you just get more and more personal.

Just because I say that I am "the messenger"
and you are attacking me instead of my message
(alluding to the truism about shooting messengers)
doesnt mean I am playing the prophet or martyr card.
Ghani, those kinds of judgements are so rudimentary.
Aren't we beyond those petty, stupid games, yet?
Shall I suggest that you're playing the martyr card here,
trying to make me guilty for "persecuting" you with my opinion?
It would make more sense than your accusations,
but, still, not enough to enter into my arguments.

Why not actually tell me what is
wrong with the point I am making,
rather than always trying to find
something wrong with me for making it?

I am not pointing any fingers, or,
if I am, I am pointing at myself, as well,
in the instances in which my behavior
is no different than yours or anyone's.
But I never intended this thread to be
a personal address to any individuals, but,
rather, an impersonal statement of my values.
If people want to come forward and make it
about them, personally, that is their choice.
Just as it is their choice to make it all about me.
But if you think my credibility has anything to do
with whether or not eating meat is criminal,
you are sorely, sorely mistaken.

And if you cannot even consider the issue
before you first consider the character of
the person who has brought up the issue,
that is unfortuneate, and, I think,
it shows how successful politicians have been
in convincing you that smear campains are relavent,
and a rational discussion of the issues is secondary.

I do not eat cows or pigs or lamb or deer...
I eat chicken and fish, and I have clearly
articulated reasons why I believe that
eating chicken and fish is not as bad as
eating mammals and larger animals.
If you consider this, then, you cannot
technically call me a hypocrite, to the extent
that I am denouncing the consumption of
cows, pigs, lamb, and similar animals,
while I do not engage in their consumption.
This is something I have mangaged to do.

As for the rest, I have confessed
my hypocrisy and my weakness, as well as
my intention to continue to refine
and perfect my diet, so as to make it
both healthful and ethical.

The confession and resolution
are just two more distinctions,
and, so, two more instance in which
I cannot technically be hypocritical.

Who else here has admitted that it is
hypocritical to say that you love animals
while torturing them and eating their flesh?
Are you less hypocritical than me,
because you deny it, and wont admit it?

As for the animals who are bred for slaughter, --
that is no argument in favor of slaughtering them.
Just because man breeds them for slaughter doesnt mean
God's purpose for their lives is to be slaughtered.
That is so, so sick. Breeding them just to kill them,
and to think that makes their lives more expendable!?!?

Most of them spend their lives in torture,
and their final moments in absolute agony,
the likes of which we cannot imagine.
All I am doing is talking about it,
and saying that it ought to stop.

I have a right to voice my point of view,
even if my values are unflattering to you.
If my credibility is an issue for you,
then, by all means, ignore my point of view,
and wait for a perfect person to come along
who has a right to your ear,
and not just your sharp tongue.

I think what we are doing is horrific,
and I am horrified with myself, most days,
for the relative part that I play in it.

posted May 22, 2009 10:31 AM         

You are honestly saying that raising animals for the purpose of eating them is homicide? So, is it also homicidal that we grow vegetables with the pure intent and purpose of killing the plant and eating it? Or is it okay because they are plants and not animals, and in your rationale, not equal to the same chance at "life"?

I'm merely making the same kind of point you are when comparing the murder of human children to the killing of animals for the purpose of food. Of course what goes on in slaughter houses is not particularly pleasant, but I personally do not feel that I am committing an atrocity by not lining up on your picket line trying to get it to stop. It is an industry that was created by man for sustanance. I agree that we waste food too much, and try myself to be sure and "only take as much as I NEED" since a life was given by a plant or animal to sustain me.

I guess I understand what people say when they say "if God didn't want us to eat meat, why did he make us crave it and make the ability to hunt one of our survival skills"? When an animal kills another animal for food, is that also murder? I don't see why not if I follow your logic.

I have not actually said that I do or do not eat meat, so I am not a hypocrite. I have not denounced anyone else here for their beliefs of eating or not eating meat, so I am not being hypocritical.

I have no idea why you feel that what I am saying is a personal attack on YOU, but it's not at all. As I said, if anyone was making the arguments you are making, with the same accusatory and inflammatory statements, you bet your butt I would be calling them on it as well.

I admit I find your way of going about discussing topics such as this as "sh!it stirring" since you seem to not be able to respect anyone else's personal views.

posted May 22, 2009 03:49 PM         

I've come a long path to understand different opinions and nowadays I'm always looking for balance. And seeing both sides of an issue. Like this one, Vegetarianism.

posted May 22, 2009 06:07 PM         

quote:

---

I do not agree with your views,
but I will respect them.

---

Thank you. Now, get to it.

Almost all your objections have been dealt with.
Others already made them, and I answered them,
so, if you take the time to read the thread,
you might be able to get yourself caught up.

There are all sorts of side issues you are raising,
and they are not of any interest to me or this topic.
Nonetheless, I have been indulgent and answered most.

My argument is extremist only in relation to the status quo.
I would argue that it is extremist to breed, cage,
torture and slaughter animals industrially.
And I think I've shown more than enough
evidence and logic to support this claim
You continue to tell me I am doing this or that,
or my message is this or that, but I see very
few attempts from you to actually argue those claims.

God has given many people the urge to molest children.
Is that an argument in favor of giving free range to lower drives?
God has given us all sort of things to overcome...
do you think they were intended as excuses not to overcome?

I cannot think of any omnivores, other than man,
who have evolved to the point of personal choice.
All other animals, it seems, run on pure instinct,
while we are able to consciously change our habits.
We are able to cultivate what we NEED to survive,
without taking the lives of animals, if we choose.
I dare you to consider and respond to these points.

posted May 22, 2009 06:19 PM         

Do you respect their meat-eating
more than my protest against it?

Do you tolerate their actions
more than you tolerate my words?

posted May 23, 2009 02:43 AM         

Humans are physically either vegetarians, omnivores, or anything else.

Ghanima81,

Thanks.

MysticMelody,

Thanks for your thoughtful posts. However, transmigration is extremely rare, and normally does not happen to human souls; therefore, one cannot be a mosquito in one lifetime, a "steak" in the next, and a human being in yet another lifetime. You could say it's just me, since I cannot provide evidence on the Internet.

Valus,

I suppose we all need to undergo some kind of transformation in our own way of rationalizing and relating to others on our own terms...

D

posted May 24, 2009 01:24 AM         

...I mean...since going to extremes is just fine.... And the ends justify the means...even though...what are the means here?
I mean, I'd love to say everything is objective, but it's not. The only argument is coming from Valus, who is a meat-eater too, and yet is interested in the matter. And I am not saying this to offend though, I am just looking at the whole thread. I fully respect the subject of debate in and of itself. And I am wondering...

What is the point here?
Vegans remain vegans.
Vegetarians remain vegetarians.
Carnivores remain carnivores.

I realize the thread maybe not to 'change' anyone, but to make people look at their own behavior. Assuming, of course, that they DO NOT already. But what if they do...then what?
And, ultimately, we are all murderers in some form or another, no? We live on this planet. We kill. Intentionally, unintentionally. Everywhere we go, we as humans KILL. Insects die constantly. Brutally. What's worse is that most of us do not eat them.
No, I'm not being sarcastic, either. Those people who spear insects and find them delightfully crunchy...what of them?

Valus...I am honestly curious how you feel ultimately we should all live. I mean, you've kind of punched holes in the way meat eaters live, and you seem passionate on the subject here. So how would you have it otherwise? Would you have it otherwise...and how?
I'm just interested because you keep going against meat-eating (even though you admit to being an occasional meat-eater yourself)...so in a perfect utopia, how would it be? What do you think?
I just love eating meat.
And I love raw vegetables too.
So...is the problem with 'society', or is it within our very nature itself? Us as humans...contradictory specimens.
I wonder...how is that reconciled. Is it ever? Is the conflict inherently part of who we are as people?

For me, I don't really pay mind to it much longer. I've shoveled in mouths full of veal while explaining to a person how veal are slaughtered. No exaggeration. And I still enjoyed my meat. And yet I break down crying if I see an animal hurt. If you were to show me videos of a veal being tortured as I eat it? Nope. Doesn't work. I've watched it and literally ate veal the next day. That makes me a damn hypocrite. But I can't help how I feel. And I can't help how I love the taste of veal (or foi gras for that matter, which is illegal in some states lol). I am weak in my appetites. I fully admit it, and yet I am somehow okay with that too.

I mean, people are contradictory. We crave peace and yet live in a society that is off on war. We hate seeing animals tortured and yet have to debate HUMAN torture. What does this say about us? Collectively? Besides the obvious, I mean lol.