posted May 29, 2009 07:07 PM         

Godzala, watch your back, lol

People are still having substance.

posted May 31, 2009 10:16 PM         

Many thanks.

D

posted June 03, 2009 11:29 PM         

To answer the question: Do People EAT MEAT To Be CRUEL??

I don't know about people but let me speak for myself.

My mom, still speaks of how I used to find meat disgusting. I used to be forced to eat meat and by the way I reacted, I would have been shipped to a psychiatrist and medicated because I reacted violently to being fed meat. I would leave the house when meat was being cooked because it would nauseate me. At dinner, feeling helpless, I would act out and I would throw the plate away, spit the meat out right there and then at the table, but that behaviour didn't last long.

I got a hiding, got punished by getting a thrashing, so that I would eat my meat. (Now, don't you western people think I got abused. Maybe I did, but it was not malicious. It is in our culture to thrash a child. Unfortunately, I didn't blend well with my people.) So, I learned early and decided to eat it to avoid punishment.

I would eat it slowly, eyes pressed and frowning, concentrating on not making a scene which would warrant a hiding, but for a while, I couldn't swallow it and would end up with a mouth full of meat pulp which my mom would let me get rid of without punishment, seeing as I tried. The meat would just remain in my mouth and not go down. When I grew a little older, I would force down the gravy which reeked of meat,and push the flesh aside.

I then discovered that I could eat meat in certain forms, ground meat and meat that was overpowered by spices, hence my inclination toward Indian food today, and my love for spices. I can't live without Garam Masala, Curry powder, ginger and garlic if meat is involved. If I am eating vegetables, spices are not that necessary for me.

Anyway, as soon as I found the strength to stand up to my family, I made it clear to everyone that I was no longer eating meat. This meant that I was not party to many traditional ceremonies and celebrations which involved killing of animals and eating them. And, I didn't eat meat for years thereafter.

I was conditioned to eat meat. That's the answer to your question.

I was conditioned to eat eggs too because I find them equally disgusting. I drink milk but it freaks me out. I prefer fake milk in general like those powdered ones, and I love soy. But, milk is rather pleasant if I don't think too much about it. I prefer milk than tap water.

And, they say that Fish is the better, lighter meat, but this is the only meat that I can not stomach, even if I have doused it in spices. I just can't. Fish is, sacrilegious. Things that reside in the oceans were not meant to be eaten AT ALL, as far as I am concerned. That's my personal opinion. They have something about them.

But... as I said in another thread, I have been eating meat recently because I am experimenting... I also have to take Omega 6 and 3 suppliments, Calcum Complex, Iron tablets to remain alive.

posted June 11, 2009 04:41 AM         

To which culture do you belong? I'm curious. Would you care to share a little more with us?

I was conditioned to eat flesh when I was a little girl, too- liver, heart, brain...you name it

You said:

quote:

---

Fish is, sacrilegious. Things that reside in the oceans were not meant to be eaten AT ALL, as far as I am concerned. That's my personal opinion. They have something about them.

---

I have exactly the same feeling toward sea animals, too. It's been two years since I first thought about the nature of sea life- the aquatic animals- they are sacred and yet ferocious. I have a theory of my own about my people- the Japanese, our militarism, our seppuku, or the Japanese ritual suicide, the popularity of group suicide in the modern Japanese society...our culture throughout the entire Japanese history...all have to do with the massive consumption of fish and other sea animals and other aquatic animals by us Japanese. That is my conclusion. The Japanese value honor as superior to staying alive; for the older generations of us Japanese, this is especially the case; hence so many suicide cases.

Again, fish and other water animals are divine, yet with some kind of very raw nature and again, ferocious.

D

posted June 11, 2009 08:17 PM         

I belong to the Zulu tribe of South Africa. Here are some links to give you a little idea about us although half of what's written about us is not accurate (and the Zulus aren't too concerned about correcting the false bits.
http://www.africaguide.com/culture/tribes/zulu.htm http://www.eshowe.com/article/articlestatic/69/1/13/

quote:

---

they are sacred and yet ferocious.

---

Exactly my sentiments. They are sacred yet highly ferocious. So much so that traditionally, the Zulus do not eat fish, nor mess with the ocean due to it's spiritual heaviness so to speak, as it is believed to be another realm altogether.

There are talks of it being the realm of the "Queen of the Sea" who initiates many Shamans to be mystics, etc. The sea is definitely known as a sacred, yet menacing place. (this is what they say)

I feel the same in a way that the sea seems saturated with another type of energy, a consciousness of some sort. I feel that this consciousness, the "collective marine consciousness" if one can call it that, doesn't like us humans very much and so I think naturally, I am just weary of the sea. It repels me, but it is beautiful. So, it is to be respected and almost feared. I'm allergic to it, spiritually allergic to its entire being. It is like an organism.

quote:

---

this is especially the case; hence so many suicide cases.

---

And it could be no coincidence that as the earth has been consuming more marine life, so have the suicide rates also increased.

This reminds me of something I once read of how the anger of a nation, or a generation, can cause terrible "curses" (psychological unrest) for the people who angered them, and that these psychological problems (curses) can be inherited i.e. the sins of the father being inherited for generations by their off-springs. If the sea is as I think it is, and it has no love for the human race, then of course, it would "curse" everything we take from it.

There are other realms, it is believed. The air, beneath the ground, and the worst of these realms is the realm of water. Now, I am not saying that this is true, but it does correlate with my sentiments on the matter, even though the legends might be unreal.

posted June 13, 2009 04:54 AM         

I just read the contents from both the two links you had provided, and I checked Wikipedia as well.

It seems to me that the two of us share a lot in common when it comes to our views of the ocean and the marine life, and how they influence human beings. Finally, I've found someone who relates to what I had been keeping to myself for more than two years.

quote:

---

The sea is definitely known as a sacred, yet menacing place. (this is what they say)

---

I totally agree. This is exactly how I feel about the sea. It is sacred in its own right, yet certainly a menacing place- for good reason.

quote:

---

It repels me, but it is beautiful.

---

Same here. Strange as it is, but that is the very nature of the ocean.

quote:

---

the sea seems saturated with another type of energy, a consciousness of some sort. I feel that this consciousness, the "collective marine consciousness" if one can call it that, doesn't like us humans very much

---

You really hit it home, Unmoved.

quote:

---

And it could be no coincidence that as the earth has been consuming more marine life, so have the suicide rates also increased.

---

I sound like I keep repeating myself- but there is nothing I can say except that this is precisely my perception.

quote:

---

If the sea is as I think it is, and it has no love for the human race, then of course, it would "curse" everything we take from it.

---

Unlike what Wicca or Druidism think about the sea, call it my own theory as you may- the ocean is the hate of the Mother Earth- also known as Mother Goddess of Earth. The sea is her blood of hate, and all life in the ocean are the creatures of hate and death. No, the sea and the marine life do not like us humans much. [EDITED TO ADD:]In fact, not at all- few of us human beings ever suspect this, though.

quote:

---

There are other realms, it is believed. The air, beneath the ground, and the worst of these realms is the realm of water.

---

Especially the realm of the ocean.

D

posted June 17, 2009 04:37 AM         

The International Vegetarian Union www.ivu.org

The Vegan Society UK www.vegansociety.com

American Vegan Society www.americanvegan.org/

The Vegan Society of Australia www.veganaustralia.net/

The Vegan Society of New Zealand www.veganz.pl.net/

South African Vegan Society www.vegansociety.co.za/

Vegan Society of Japan www.vegan.jp

Hong Kong Vegan Society www.ivu.org/hkvegan/hk/main.html

The Vegan Outreach www.veganoutreach.org

Compassion Over Killing www.cok.net

Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) www.pcrm.org

Vegan Freaks www.veganfreaks.org

or

www.veganfreaks.com

(???)

The Post Punk Kitchen www.theppk.com

Glyde Condoms www.glydehealth.com/

Condomi Condoms www.condomi.com

Toys in Babeland www.babeland.com

Vegan Erotica www.veganerotica.com

Veg Sex Shop www.vegsexshop.com

D

posted June 17, 2009 04:44 AM         

The Farm Sanctuary www.farmsanctuary.org

Poplar Springs Animal Sanctuary www.animalsanctuary.org/

OohMahNee Farm

Please search for it with its name as the keywords. The web address does not seem to function normally at the moment.

Animal Acres www.animalacres.org/

Eastern Shore Chicken Sanctuary & Education Center www.bravebirds.org/

Lighthouse Farm Sanctuary www.lighthousefarmsanctuary.org/

D

posted June 18, 2009 05:20 AM         

Indian Vegan Society http://indianvegansociety.com/

(If the link doesn't work, simply copy the link and paste it, then click Enter- and here you are!)

The Indonesian Vegan Society www.i-v-s-.org/

France Veg (French Vegan Society) www.geocities.com/vegorg02/

Vegetarian & Vegan Foundation www.vegetarian.org.uk

D

posted June 18, 2009 09:52 AM         

quote:

---

Do People EAT MEAT To Be CRUEL??

---

Some people actually really do In fact, more than you and I may have imagined

I just encountered what I consider hate crime toward vegans/vegetarians/vegetarian-friendly people:-(
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001637.html

posted June 18, 2009 11:25 AM         

PETA deserves it.

Many of the rest of us DON'T!

D

posted June 19, 2009 05:53 AM         

quote:

---

I just encountered what I consider hate crime toward vegans/vegetarians/vegetarian-friendly people:-(

---

posted June 19, 2009 06:18 AM         

quote:

---

I hope I don't look like I am acting confused again- because, I think, after such a long time, for the first time ever, I am beginning to contemplate what impacts vegetarianism has made in the West.

I just came across with something very saddening, very distressing, very distorting, very twisted, very evil today. I see the boomrang effect pointing directly at us vegetarians and vegans

Activist vegetarians and vegans in the West, not like their fellow vegetarians in the ancient East, have been applying a certain approach to spread the vegetarian message, so to speak- often in violent ways.

Hate begets hate; anger begets anger.

Take one of my former veg organizations for instance- their Q&A in their Special Magazine were full of sarcastic answers to omnivores who would ask us vegetarians or vegans a question. This is wrong- so wrong. Sarcasm is the worst way for communication. Imagine how we would make an omnivore feel after we have answered her or him in a sarcastic, condescending manner. This particular group has done a great deal of good, but they are wrong to teach us sarcasm, wrong to justify one of themselves as a "Grumpy old vegan"- if you're grumpy, the meat eater you know will get grumpy too- and you've lost the battle. Because you've used the wrong strategies.

Dumping a bunch of horse manure outside of a famous chef's restaurant which serves horse meat- that's so wrong. Do they really think they could enlighten the chef in question by this violent act? Do they really think they could enlighten meat eaters by speaking to them sarcastically?

Splashing red paint onto a female pedestrian who's wearing fur...again, do they honestly believe that this will inspire the woman in fur? Or more likely to incur her hatred toward any given vegan/vegetarian, and vegetarianism?

Setting off stinking bombs in animal labs...maybe they had made their point. But remember, hate begets hate.

Saying publically "We should bomb McDonald's!" and causing someone to act this out- again, totally wrong tactics, and you've lost the war.

---

To be continued...

D

posted June 19, 2009 06:19 AM         

quote:

---

I am thinking hate crime. Hate crime toward different races, different sexual orientations, different sexuality, now- even toward vegetarians and vegans- and many of us are not even among those extremists/fanatics.

I am beholding something profoundly saddening, profoundly evil- but to my mind, this phenomenon appears to be the product of radical vegetarianism and radical animal rights activism. Particularly the issues concerning vegetarianism and meatism in the West are horrendous. I dread to see this happening right before my eyes.

And the distortion of the truth.

And lack of mutual respect.

Lots of things are wrong with western vegetarianism and western veganism.

We as vegans and vegetarians need to live a life that does not contradict our ideals for peace, love, well-being, and all the goodness.

---

quote:

---

And so many of us vegans and vegetarians have been, at least at some stage of our plant-based way of life, or is still being- so very brainwashed by those vegan animal rights groups. Most of those organizations are of a quite paradoxical nature- they have educated many, converted many to vegetarianism or veganism, but there are still so many of us who have been brainwashed and programmed to become as though all of us are the products being made with the same pigeon hole. How sad

My fellow vegetarians: if you choose to keep silent, to keep it to yourself, while managing not to suffer as a meek vegetarian- that's good enough, and by living by example, you contribute a great deal more to the vegetarian movement. By contrast, if you apply the wrong strategies, you lose the war, worse still- you pay the price dearer than you have ever imagine.

---

Dervish,

I will not post the links as I consider this a grave matter, which requires thourough online and offline investigation, research, discretion, time, patience, cool-headedness, and eventually- reporting to the appropriate organizations on such a hate group against vegans, vegetarians, and vegetarian-friendly people

D

posted June 19, 2009 06:54 AM         

Like vegetarians, people eat meat for various reasons. Some, like in the arctic regions, have little choice but to eat meat (and seem to do very well with it). Some eat meat for religious reasons (just as others don't eat meat for the same reason). I even know a Wiccan who considers hunting a sacred & holy rite of sorts. But I expect most simply don't think about it and do it because most other people do, though I'm sure some people require it, just as others have bodies wired to best avoid meat and/or animal products (it shouldn't be a radical concept that our bodies differ somewhat from each other in our needs).

I was taught how to hunt, and I took down an animal. I won't share the details as some here probably couldn't stand it, but I found it a spiritual experience, one made me feel bonded with nature, and I felt kinship with the animal I killed...I realized I, too, was meat, and while I'd defend myself as best I could from say bears & cougars, I held no malice for them. It's Nature's way, every single act of creation and life brings destruction and death...they're really one and the same. I thought that when I died, I hope my body was given to the earth (no coffin) to feed the land as the land fed me. If there is a Grand Creator, I'd think Its Will would be shown in Its Creation, and that Creation is one that includes red talons & fangs, and cruelty, just as it includes play, love, and self-sacrifice. (And btw, I'm not against cannibalism when in dire straights, as done by those people who crashed in the mountains and the Donner Party.)

Anyway, hunters & farmers come in many types, too. Some hunters care for the environment and see hunting as part of that cycle (and kinder than how many other predators take down prey), and about cry over places that show animals starving to death & woodlands decimated because some law prevented reasonable hunting. Heck, plenty of hunters are also professionals in environmental fields. And some farms that do sell animal products, and even kill animals themselves, hold various standards, from the respectful (though obviously not equal) to the mind boggling cruel. Like vegetarians, they're not all one and the same, nor are they all the epitome of sainthood or sadism.

Granny told me that her dad hunted to put food on the table, but he'd never shoot an animal that looked him in the eyes first, because he somehow felt that was murder. Go figure.

I've heard hunters get furious hearing about animals forced to fight each other, sadism against animals for pleasure (like setting helpless animals on fire), and the like. Some hear of "hunting ranches" where caged animals are shot, or dogs are trained by declawing a cougar and sicking their dogs on it and become physically sick with rage. Some hunters are even creeped out by mounted heads, taxidermists, and the like, too. Others will give some to all of their meat to homeless shelters.

Some farmers that sell animals products & meat can get furious when they hear of calves being sold for veal just so the mother cow's milk could be sold (instead of going to the calf) or transport them without the ability to stand or sit, and other ways that animals aren't raised until slaughter (or usage), but downright torturous conditions (generally with the stated belief that the animal isn't sentient enough to realize pain or discomfort, though they get angry fast enough when you point out their distressed cries).

Can't understand it? Then at least try to understand that they find your view just as baffling.

There are plenty of obnoxious (and worst) hunters, ranchers, and the like, too. They often draw a lot of anger from other hunters, etc...but that's not so different from how plenty of vegetarians come down hard on PETA and ALF, or like how some vegetarians were shocked that one woman would only allow her cat to eat soy products instead of meat, or the vegan parents that killed their infant with malnutrition.

As for jerks, those really aren't dependent on diet, at least not that I can see. Nor are they all (of either side) jerks.

Let's see...I went to a vegetarian potluck for awhile, which though I am a meat eater I always took a vegan dish because I knew there were vegans there and most vegetarian dishes had cheese in them in order to make them more filling (so yeah, the cruel meat eater that I am was even nicer to the vegans than the vegetarians were). To this day I keep vegan berry bars for vegan guests so that they can have something other than salad, and I occasionally help or donate to Food Not Bombs. And I was as offended as the vegans & vegetarians when some guests showed up once and began talking loudly about meat dishes--as it just wasn't appropriate or respectful. But I've ALSO seen some people who get offended when someone turns down some meat they just made, too, and act as if the vegetarian was a self-righteous jerk for just politely but firmly saying no.

When I was 4, I saw some of my relatives branding a calf tied to a table and started crying. When my uncle told me "it didn't hurt" I cried even harder because he LIED to me, and it upset him when I said it (it was obvious from the calf's cries that it hurt). He also didn't like that I showed empathy toward one docile cow that I'd named (in retrospect I was lucky not to be stomped...though I did get chased more than once & I think a horse nearly broke my foot later on)

Later when eating burgers, my uncle (actually his son, my cousin Zack I've mentioned before, was the first to bring it up) let me know that the hamburger I was eating was made from the cow I liked & named, "Because cows aren't pets, they're FOOD." Being 4, I didn't really understand, and for days after I kept looking for "my cow," not understanding I'd never see her again. 'Course what that helped me to learn is to not love, because those I care about will die, but hey...this is also why I laugh bitterly whenever I hear someone else say "children have to learn empathy," when in my case the lessons were designed to drive it from me, not instill it. And I'll freely say my uncle was a jerk, and he's one of the reasons I can't say the farm I was partially raised on was humane (though still a lot better than many others).

But as for vegans and the like? They have plenty of jerks, too. ALF is infamous for killing various animals from "liberating" them (the most they accomplish is drive a few "fur farms" out of biz by at least seeing to it that the animals deaths--though probably more terrifying & painful than it otherwise would've been, especially on those eaten by other animals--don't profit the farm, but farms have ways of operating at a loss thanks to certain bankruptcy laws & government programs). PETA not only has daily hypocrisy, but their frequent stupidity is mind boggling. They also oppose no kill shelters, despite that some no kill shelters are successful & without cages.

I recall one time when friends of mine decided to eat at a KFC. Normally I skip the fast food, but I'm not ungracious when others decide to go. (And I've learned years ago that if I boycotted every place that had practices I disapproved of, I'd need to go find a cave to live in somewhere and completely give up on civilization.) As we got there, there were some people from PETA holding the most brutal pix of chickens slaughtered much like pro-lifers holding up pix of aborted fetuses.

My friends were bemused, and amused when I said, "Don't worry, they look tastier once they're done being cooked." To top it off, they smelled & looked as if they hadn't washed themselves or their clothes in at least a week. And I hated that they were dressed a bit like neo-hippies, because that was how I was dressed (save I was clean & presentable). IOW, they were as rude (at best!) as those meat eaters talking in detail about meat dishes at the vegetarian pot luck, and they were filthy, disgusting, and presented a bad image. They convinced no one, save to hate people who had beliefs like that.

As for me, I also hated that every single one of them was white, like me. I was the only white person among my friends, and inside was 1 white eating and 1 behind the counter, and not dressed at all like me or them. I was eager to get some chicken just to prove that I was NOT with those PETA folk outside. And given how hard it is to embarrass me, that's saying something.

It's been suggested that PETA is actually a group designed to counter vegetarian and animal rights groups by being so ridiculous. I don't buy into that conspiracy theory, but I can understand why someone else might agree with that. (I do think the top membership of PETA are scammers, though, who only care about raking in the money from gullible do-gooders.)

posted June 21, 2009 02:50 AM         

Toronto Vegetarian Association
www.veg.ca/

Japanese Vegetarian Society
www.jpvs.org/Eng/ep1/index-eng.html

Korea Vegetarian Union
www.vege.or.kr/

Indonesia Vegetarian Society
www.ivs-online.org/v2/index.php

Tibetan For A Vegetarian Society
www.t4vs.org/

Vegan Social Club of Beijing
http://vegansocialclub.com/

Middle East Vegetarian Association
www.meveg.info/

I meant it was the first contemporary vegetarian animal rights activists in the West who started "the war". Promoting vegetarianism never should have turned into "a war"- but tragically, it has. Promoting vegetarianism is supposed to be for uniting vegetarians around the globe, or in each of their own local area for like-minded people to find support in one another, plus information exchange. Unfortunately, the vegetarian movement in the West was wrong almost right from the start- they waged war against meat eaters, and that was, ans still is, stupidity.

I called it "the war" because it is already a war, not because it is meant to be. Fact is, the vegetarian movement took the wrong turn at some point in the last century.

Should I delve deep into my unconscious? I don't know about Valus (formerly Heart--Shaped Cross), but I intend to provide information here on this thread, and when I bump onto this board, I'm not thinking about conversion. I just thought certain concepts needed clarification.

I provide the links for those who are of interest in vegetarianism, not to force everyone to become vegans or vegetarians.

I heard of the hideous news about the vegan couple killing their infant son with malnutrition a few years ago, from Sophie Fenwick-Paul at Thames Valley Vegans and Vegetarians. That incidence certainly gave us vegetarians a bad rap, but most are still unaware that this was an extreme case, in which the vegan parents were fully responsible for their ignorance to feed their baby with such simply wrong foods. There are quite a lot of vegan parents who have successfully raised their kids with a vegan way of life. Having said that, I am not urging all of you, or any of you, to put your child on a vegan or vegetarian diet. It is your decision.

I can sense your disdain when your friends and you were about to chill out, have a good time together and share a meal at KFC, and being stalked by PETA protestors. I have nothing but contempt for such PETA protestors, or I should say- PETA stalkers, PETA terrorists...I've read about actor James Cromwell becoming vegan after starring in the movie "Babe", and how he participated in the protest plus harassment as part of PETA outside of a Wendy's restaurant, and how he was sued, and the court, the judge, said unless Cromwell intended to dine at Wendy's, he would be under a court restraining order prohibiting him ever approaching the premises of Wendy's for at least how long a distance. Something like that. As a vegetarian, the above-mentioned incidence revolts me, and I don't like James Cromwell, exactly because he took part in PETA's lunacy, and I wonder how people ever buy such lunacy. PETA commercializes vegetarianism- for instance, holding annual online elections for "The Sexiest Vegetarian Celebrities Alive" and "The Sexiest Vegetarians Alive"- it appears to be fun, but something is intrinsically wrong with that. Moreover, some, if not many, of the celebrities, mainly entertainers, who are on PETA's lists as vegetarian candidates are in fact NOT even vegetarians. Talk about hypocrisy. How PETA still exists is a very serious question. They are like pandemics. They convert more folks into the lunatics that the PETA staff are.

I still have to ponder on all that you just shared with us, Dervish- but first of all, I would like to thank you for sharing your thoughts in your latest post here on this thread. Your post is thought-provoking, to say the least. And I, as a vegetarian, am not going to criticize you for eating meat. As long as you are honest with yourself and reasonable, whether you are a vegetarian or an omnivore, you will deserve my respect.

D

posted June 22, 2009 01:34 AM         

The Vegetarian Society UK
www.vegsoc.org

Thailand Vegetarian Society Bangkok
www.yummybaguette.com/magasin.php-id=207.htm

T3V- Thames Vally Vegans And Vegetarians
www.t3v.veggroup.org/index.html

What I was trying to convey in my last post was that, in my opinion, the earliest vegetarian groups in the West should have focused on promoting vegetarianism so we vegetarians in many different parts of the globe can find support from one another; also, to make this planet a more vegetarian-friendly, and more vegan-friendly place where we as vegans and vegetarians have fewer problems when it comes to dining out, lunch or conventions at school, at work, catering, and so forth. We would also like to raise the awareness on the health benefits of a plant-based diet in favor of an omnivorous or even carnivorous diet.

But today's vegetarian movement in the West is just pathetic, not triumphant. PETA activists and advocates are NOT AT ALL enlightened- they are psychopathological, stupid and incompetent.

Dr Samuel Sagan wrote the following in "Awakening the Third Eye", on page 235:

quote:

---

* Does one have to be vegetarian to become enlightened and clairvoyant? Certainly not! Tibetan masters eat meat. (There was no way to grow crops on the mountains of Tibet.) However, most westerners do consume too much meat. If you eat meat, it is preferable to have it for lunch rather than dinner, to secure a better quality of psychic sleep.

* The main advice is: follow your sensitivity rather than any dogma (dogma is certainly not what is lacking in the field of nutrition!) If you listen to your body and if you watch the results of different foods on your state of consciousness, you will learn to discern what should be favoured or avoided. As you proceed on the path of opening, your taste will change by itself. Among other things it is very likely that you will naturally decrease your consumption of meat.

---

D

posted June 22, 2009 06:24 AM         

As for the PETA folk outside the KFC, had they instead been clean, polite, and offered pamphlets, I would've taken one and considered it. But the way they presented themselves and their message was just very, very counterproductive. That is, it wasn't their beliefs that caused me (and I'm sure many others) to disdain them, but their presentation.

posted June 22, 2009 09:40 PM         

And thank YOU, too, for your thoughtful post.

Those two particular child-murderers vegan parents were absurd- I absolutely agree with you, Dervish, that vegan or nonvegan, as long as the mother's health condition permits, she would breastfeed her newborn as this is the best way to raise her baby. When I was a volunteer at T3V's (Thames Valley Vegans and Vegetarians) "One Voice For Veggies" at WOMAD, in Reading, England back in '04, I watched one of T3V's co-founders, Sophie Fenwick-Paul breastfeed her newborn child at our stand. Any sensible vegan parent would understand that breastfeeding is the most wholesome way to nourish your baby. Feeding your child with your own human breast milk DOES NOT involve in any "animal exploitation". Human breast milk is the best food for human babies, and I've been very skeptical about some vegan animal rights group's advocates who bragged about feeding their infant children with vegan infant soya formula from birth to at least the fourth month- were they too busy as entertainers, to the extent that they could not care less to breast feed their own babies? Veganism is basically about a diet and a way of life that are as plant-based as possible and as practical. The convicted vegan parents child murderers- failed to breast feed their infant son, and though this remains an extreme case, still, I must say, they are two of the worst role models for vegans, and the vegan mother in question failed to breast feed her son. This is not sensible veganism. This is madness.

D

posted July 12, 2009 12:33 AM         

As far as if people eat meat to be cruel...no I don't think so. Most people just don't question it, some people do it for health reasons (my dad's friend was a lacto veg for 30 years and his doctor told him recently that he should eat meat so he started to), some feel a greater communion with the earth and natural order by eating meat. I just do what I can do, no sense in me getting upset by what others are doing or labeling them as sadistic and therefore feeling superior due to our dietary choices. I'd rather be friends with a meat-eater who is kind to people than a vegan who looks down upon his fellow man.

However, can I understand it? No. It does seem cruel to me, from MY perspective. It especially seems odd for proclaimed animal lovers to kill them (especially if they are getting their meat from factory farms), but I am not perfect so I cannot judge. Actually, I used to be a militant vegetarian when I was a teenager. Back then, before I became a veg 8.5 years ago, I was a veg for 2 years, then went back to meat! So that is worse than most meat-eaters, because my eyes were opened, I had seen the images of the factory farms, and yet I still ate meat. Now I never preach! Plus, I could be a vegan, which would be more ethical, but I'm not...

Though I think the arguments "Well, you step on thousands of bugs anyway!" or "Look at all the plants you kill, they are conscious too!" are silly. Just because you can't do everything doesn't mean you should do anything! If I have it within my (will)power to make the world a better place, even if it is just a little, then I will try.

posted July 12, 2009 06:55 AM         

I'm just curious- you are a vegetarian, and your husband is an omnivore- how do you manage to sort out the cooking? Do you cook flesh for your hubby? Or you and your husband simply order in? Just curious, don't mean to by nosy, really!

Shankara, you said:

quote:

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Though I think the arguments "Well, you step on thousands of bugs anyway!" or "Look at all the plants you kill, they are conscious too!" are silly. Just because you can't do everything doesn't mean you should do anything! If I have it within my (will)power to make the world a better place, even if it is just a little, then I will try.

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Precisely!

D

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Every night and every morn,
Some to misery are born;
Every morn and every night,
Some are born to sweet delight.
Some are born to sweet delight,
Some are born to endless night.