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Author
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Topic: Do People EAT MEAT To Be CRUEL??
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sunshine_lion
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 09:22 AM
yes indeedy. i usually quote bible when talking to hsc because he quotes bible and respects the words. there is much wisdom and great stories in there.also philosophical writings of any kind. i dont subscribe to any particular religion myself.
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ListensToTrees
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 09:27 AM
Morrissey - Meat Is Murderhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzNSAU2qM64 IP: Logged |
ghanima81
Knowflake Posts: 332
From: Maine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 02, 2009 09:34 AM
Sunshine, thank you for your objective response! I am not particularly religious at all. I would say I'm somewhat spiritual, but certainly not in a following any one religion's criteria kind of way. I believe that if you find it morally right within yourself to eat meat, I won't argue with you. There are many sides to the issue, all of which I can see validity to. It just comes down to personal decision. IP: Logged |
juniperb
Knowflake Posts: 451
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 02, 2009 10:05 AM
quote:
I believe that if you find it morally right within yourself to eat meat, I won't argue with you. There are many sides to the issue, all of which I can see validity to. It just comes down to personal decision.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 10:56 AM
By both Church and Biblical standards, eating meat is permitted. It isn't the ideal, but it is permitted. In other words ... in Eden "Let the fruit of the trees be your meat". After Eden, in the Old Testament, more dietary laws telling me how to eat meat properly then you can shake a stick at. And finally, in the New Testament ...About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat." "Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." Yes, this may mean nothing if you're not a Christian or inclined to give that religion or its spritual practices any weight. But claiming the Bible equates eating meat with murder just isn't true.
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juniperb
Knowflake Posts: 451
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 02, 2009 11:39 AM
tink, that sums it up nicely  The Holy texts gives dietary Laws and if one reads the Epistle of Barnabas, it explains the whys quite plainly. Anyhow, to understand the words murder/kill, one must seek out the root and see what precisely the word means and it`s intended use in the texts. Murder, Slay, Kill (Heb: ratsách; Grk: phoneú), verb.
I N T E R P R E T A T I O N
The Old Testament has at least 9 different Hebrew words that all convey the idea of taking a life --of killing. While all the words do carry some sort of common meaning, they also tend to each have specific emphases on the type of death: kill, beat [to death], destroy, butcher, wound [fatally], strike, sacrifice, execute, or murder.
The Hebrew word ratsách means to "murder" or "slay". While it also shares the concept of death with these other eight words, this term focuses more on the illicit taking of a life (i.e.: murder). We should be careful to distinguish this word from the other forms of killing. For example, tabách means to "butcher" (to kill for eating). In Numbers 35:16, 17, 18, 19, and 21, ratsách is used several times, and is consistently translated as a form of "murder". The most famous use of ratsách is in Exodus 20:13, which many people know in the King James Version: "Thou shalt not kill." The KJV use of "kill" has caused some to misunderstand the verse's meaning. Any Bibles translated in the last century have removed the confusion by using the more specific "murder" for ratsách (e.g.: NASB, NKJV, NIV).
The New Testament quotes Exodus 20:13 in Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, and Luke 18:20. In these verses, the Greek word used is phoneú. Like ratsách, this word also means to "murder" or "slay". It is used for the translating of the Hebrew ratsách because they both convey the thought of taking someone's life without cause.
Summary: ratsách and phoneú both mean to [kill by] murder (but they don't mean "beat", "destroy", "butcher", "fatally wound", "strike", "sacrifice", or "execute").
.
http://home.earthlink.net/~gwjshearer/afterwords/id27.html
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
ghanima81
Knowflake Posts: 332
From: Maine
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 02, 2009 12:06 PM
Thank you for the insightful responses, ladies! I didn't know that, so it's always good to learn where these ideas come from. I find it interesting that the definition in relation to killing for the purpose of eating the animal is not "without cause". Just nice to look at things from all sides. I think you're right, it doesn't really seem that the Bible equates eating meat with murder by the information you provided. So many translations and re-interpretations don't help get a definitive answer on that, but we must do with what are given, eh?
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LEXX
Moderator Posts: 2907
From: Still out looking for Schr�dinger's cat.........& LEXIGRAMMING... is my Passion!
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 02, 2009 12:22 PM
TINK & juniperb
Even though I have my own theories about the Biblical stories.....
You both have presented well here.
Excellent scholarly explanation juniperb!
The translations are near worthless without the
etymologies and actual meanings.
Thanks for posting that.I still feel there are two creation stories in the bible. However I will not get into that here and its implications on the consumption of meat.
Note: LORD loves the smell of burnt flesh.
And hated Cain's vegetarian offering but loved Abel's offering of the fat of slaughtered lambs....
quote:
The First Book of Moses, Called
Genesis 42 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: Heb. 11.4
5 but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door: and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 ¶ And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
So there you have it..their god loves burnt flesh, and killing of animals...but rejected the plant offerings of Cain...which led up to muder. quote:
"And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every
clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt
offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour;
and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the
ground any more for mans sake; for the imagination of mans
heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any
more every thing living, as I have done."
Genesis 8:20-21, KJV
Again, their god loves the odor of burnt fleash. OK..more contradictions.
If taken literally...there were only two of each animal...yet there they are killing them and sacrificing them....  quote:
"And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon
every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air,
upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes
of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving
thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green
herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life
thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."
Genesis 9:2-4, KJV
Note:
quote:
Every moving
thing that liveth shall be meat for you;
No eating of raw meat...a logical call, as uncooked blood and meat can carry disease, especially in those days. quote:
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times
some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing
spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in
hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats,
which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of
them which believe and know the truth."
1 Timothy 4:1-3, KJV
Note these two lines: quote:
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times
some shall depart from the faith,
quote:
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats,
which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of
them which believe and know the truth."
There is much more but I will not go into it more here. Perhaps I will start a thread in DD.
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The jealous are troublesome to others, but a torment to themselves. ~William Penn, Some Fruits of Solitude, 1693
A show of envy is an insult to oneself. ~Yevgeny Alexandrovich Yevtushenko IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 01:16 PM
Not so much, juni. I conveniently ignored Halal and I subjected everyone to a face-value interpretation, which, in my humble opinion, is usually asking for trouble.
quote:
The translations are near worthless without the
etymologies and actual meanings.
Well, Lexx, I personaly might not say "near worthless"  - millions have drawn hope and comfort from various religious works without what we might call an educated or enlightened understanding of them, but, in general, yeah, ditto. I think all the holy works are better approached with both a willingness to search out entymological meaning and a workable knowledge of traditional esoteric terminology. Because I've given the metaphorical meaning of the legend of Cain and Abel only a little time and attention, I wouldn't feel right commenting. So, back to meat This is taken from a review of Rudolf Steiner's The Effects of Esoteric Development ... On page 37, he gets to the crux of the effects of eating certain foods on our bodies: Steiner: "As organisms, our well-being does not depend on working as little as possible, but on activating all our forces. Thus eating plant food uses and exercises the forces of our organic development, whereas eating animal food products, these forces are not required and thus underutilized. He recommends the development of a "healthy, instinctive life" so that one loses one's appetite for animal food naturally, not based on some abstract principle of vegetarianism. The best example of abstract vegetarianism I've found was in the book, The Last Barrier, by Reshad Feild. Reshad followed a strict vegetarian protocol, and became upset by his Sufi master who was eating meat with a relish. He asked him, "Master, why do you eat meat?" His master smiled and said, "I eat meat because I like to eat meat." Thus put, the Sufi blew apart the expectations of Reshad that being a spiritual leader required a strict vegetarian life-style. Rudolf Steiner performed a similar teaching story for this adherents after a lecture in which he had explained the importance of a vegetarian diet. After the lecture, everyone was very hungry and the only place still open was an Inn that had only meat dishes on the menu. Each person in turn ordered very carefully some side dishes of vegetables, perturbing the Innkeeper to no small amount. When at the very last, the time came for Steiner to order he said, "I'll have the special" - beef stew. When the group was leaving the Inn, the Innkeeper was heard to say, pointing to Steiner, "That man is the only normal person in the group." Apparently his audience had swallowed whole his lecture on eating vegetables as an abstract principle, and Steiner gave them a quick reality check. It was as though he were saying by ordering the meat-filled special, "Eating meat is not necessary nor is it forbidden. Eating only vegetables for some of you is probably pre-mature as it represents a token adherence to an abstract principle, rather than a natural result of your esoteric growth process." IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 01:25 PM
Your Timothy verse is a good one, Lexx. Don't hear it too often. Can't imagine why.  IP: Logged |
Heart--Shaped Cross
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 02:28 PM
If I say,
"It's all relative, to me." --I mustn't forget,
"It's relative to others, too."
~ Valus
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Heart--Shaped Cross
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 02:31 PM
I do not belong to any organized faith.But the Christian Gospel speaks to me,
and I believe I understand it better
than most who call themselves Christians. I will quote the Bible,
just as I will quote Gandhi,
or Einstein, or anyone else,
who has spoke wisely on this. I hope that clarifies.
God Bless
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Heart--Shaped Cross
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 02:35 PM
"On the question of meat: where, I ask you, has this ever been condemned by God or forbidden to monks? Look, pray, and mark how of necessity St Benedict modifies the Rule on this point too (though it is more dangerous for monks and he knew it was not for them), because in his day it was impossible to persuade monks to abstain from meat. I would like to see the same dispensation granted in our own times, with a similar modification regarding matters which fall between good and evil and are called indifferent, so that vows would not compel what cannot now be gained by persuation. If concession were made without scandal on neutral points, it would be enough to forbid only what is sinful... For things which do not prepare us for the Kingdom of God or commend us least to God call for no special attention. These are all outward works which are common to the damned and elect alike, as much to hypocrites as to the religious. For nothing so divides Jew from Christian as the distinction between outward and inner works, especially since between the children of God and those of the devil love alone distinguishes: what the Apostle calls the sum of the law and the object of what is commanded. And so he also disparages pride in works in order to set above it the righteousness of faith."
~ Heloise to Abelard
The Letters of Direction
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juniperb
Knowflake Posts: 451
From: Blue Star Kachina
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 02, 2009 02:56 PM
lexx quote:
The translations are near worthless without the
etymologies and actual meanings.
And to take it one step further, knowing the esoteric meaning of word usage in the culture gives it the taste of intention and completes the definitive meaning/intent. An example I see often is Rumi and his poetry. Without knowing the sufi`s esoteric meaning of mole, dimple, curl,tavern drunkeness and so forth , one does not understand the poetry as ment by the sufi poet. It becomes open to literal translation and the intent lost. Insightful posts ladies!! ------------------
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~ - George Eliot IP: Logged |
sunshine_lion
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 03:03 PM
actually latin and hebrew translations and an understanding of latin and hebrew helps a lot in understanding many of the words as they were written.HSC - i know this about you. i too am very comfortable with it in conversing as i have studied, memorized more than my share and try to understand it as a whole. please do not take my earilier comments in the wrong way. i know you respect it as i do and therefore i know we can relate to each other in those devine teachings. thats all i meant. not in part as most religions, but in whole, as it was meant. lexx also pretty much knows it front to back. we read it for friday night fun growing up. IP: Logged |
Dulce Luna
Knowflake Posts: 7
From: The Asylum, NC
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 02, 2009 03:27 PM
I'm non-practicisng Roman Catholic that pretty much suscribes to different philosophies on life. But I think my understanding of the Bible is alot more in agreement with Juniper's, TINK's, or Lexx's. I never got the impression from that text that God condemned meat eaters. Context is important, remember that! The book is over 2000 years old and set in a totally different culture. IP: Logged |
sunshine_lion
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 03:32 PM
dulce luna - mine is too. i am a meat eater and ok with it.i was just explaining why i used scripture sometimes when talking to hsc. it is a respect thing. IP: Logged |
Dulce Luna
Knowflake Posts: 7
From: The Asylum, NC
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted April 02, 2009 03:50 PM
Oh, I'm sorry Sunshine... I forgot to include that.  My post was more directed at those who cited scripture to make a point AGAINST meateaters, I know you're not one of those people.  IP: Logged |
TINK
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 04:19 PM
Good point, juni. 'Wine' is an ancient and commonly used metaphor found in most (all?)spiritual streams. Many an Islamic sufi, when referring to 'wine' and 'drunkenness', has run into trouble with a literal minded orthodox Muslim. At first glance, the sufi was obviously breaking Islamic laws against alcohol. One sufi, Junayad of Baghdad, was called "the sober sufi" because he did not believe in ultimate total absorption with God. Didn't have anything to do with his drink of choice, but it can be difficult to explain that sort of thing to a hard core fundementalist. I don't knock them either though. Wine as a sufi poetical device is a different sort of thing from the reality of wine, which actually draws us further into the sensual material world. The cults of Bacchus, for instance. Interesting, I think. So the fundies have their point too. Just a whole lot of miscommunication. quote:
Context is important, remember that! The book is over 2000 years old and set in a totally different culture.
also something I try to remember. Culturally, psychologically, spiritually different. I think human beings have evolved not only physically but spiritually. Our consciousness has changed. Which is a good part of the symbology, I think, between the famous water to wine event at the Marriage at Cana in the New Testament. IP: Logged |
Heart--Shaped Cross
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 04:49 PM
"Sound of Silence"
Hello darkness, my old friend,
I've come to talk with you again,
Because a vision softly creeping,
Left its seeds while I was sleeping,
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence.
In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone,
'Neath the halo of a street lamp,
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence. And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more.
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dare
Disturb the sound of silence. "Fools" said I, "You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows.
Hear my words that I might teach you,
Take my arms that I might reach you."
But my words like silent raindrops fell,
And echoed
In the wells of silence And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning,
In the words that it was forming.
And the sign said, "The words of the prophets
are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls."
And whisper'd in the sounds of silence.
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Heart--Shaped Cross
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 04:49 PM
"Put A Little Love In Your Heart"
Think of your fellow man
Lend him a helping hand
Put a little love in your heart
You see it's getting late
Oh please don't hesitate
Put a little love in your heart And the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see Another day goes by
And still the children cry
Put a little love in you heart
If you want the world to know
We won't let hatred grow
Put a little love in your heart And the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see
Wait and see Take a good look around
And if you're lookin' down
Put a little love in your heart I hope when you decide
Kindness will be your guide
Put a little love in your heart And the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see Put a little love in your heart
Put a little love in your heart
Put a little love in your heart
Put a little love in your heart
Put a little love in -
Put a little love in your heart...
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sunshine_lion
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 04:54 PM
I Can See Clearly NowI can see clearly now the rain is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way,
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind.
It's gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright) sunshiny day.
It's gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright) sunshiny day. I think I can make it now the pain is gone,
And all of the bad feelings have disappeared,
Here is the rainbow I've been praying for.
It's gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright) sunshiny day.
It's gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright) sunshiny day. Look all around, nothing but blue skies.
Look straight ahead, nothing but blue skies. I can see clearly now the rain is gone.
I can see all obstacles in my way.
Gone are the dark clouds that had me blind.
It's gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright) sunshiny day.
It's gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright) sunshiny day.
It's gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright) sunshiny day.
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Heart--Shaped Cross
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 04:54 PM
sunshine lion -  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:
for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
~ Romans 13:8 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour:
therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
~ Romans 13:10 For all the law is fulfilled in one word,
even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
~ Galatians 5:14 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
~ James 2:8
1 Corinthians
Chapter 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
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sunshine_lion
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 04:55 PM
we posted at the same time.
peace and know that i do have love to you and your heart.IP: Logged |
Heart--Shaped Cross
unregistered
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posted April 02, 2009 04:56 PM
Thank you.
And to yours. IP: Logged | |
Lindaland
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