posted April 09, 2009 02:53 AM            

SunChild

I disagree, Ghani. We all have a lot to teach, and a lot more to learn. We are all the agents of one another's awakening. There's nothing humble about playing small and shirking that responsibility. If you see something that may help someone, you have a duty to communicate what you see. Of course, no matter how you do it, there will always be detractors who have nothing better to do than try to bring you down for having the audacity to try to raise yourself and others up. Every teacher who has ever distinguished him or herself has had to suffer accusations and taunts from envious mobs, whose personal grudges and motivations covered their eyes to impersonal truths. There is no better teacher than history, and, sadly, history has proven this to be true time after time after time.

posted April 09, 2009 07:18 AM            

"Say what you mean but don't be mean when you say it"

posted April 09, 2009 08:43 AM              

Looking at it that way, it feels like some kind of respite station; a half-way house; a sanctuary. How fortunate are we that we have that option! What a relief to be able to cast off the heavy burden of pride and submerge our self in the tepid pool of humility.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.austheos.org.au/topics/JM-guideposts.htm
"Krishna says in [The Bhagavad Gita]verse 17 of discourse 4, “Mysterious is the path of action” and in verse 18, “He who seeth inaction in action, and action in inaction, he is wise . . . he is harmonious even while performing all action.”

So I guess it makes me wonder what constitutes duty, and what is worthy duty.
http://theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/truth/tr-dara.htm
"The yoga or skill in action comes through deciding which of many duties to fulfill -- to mankind, to family, or to nature? Clearly the web of life affects all planes of action and great discernment is needed."

When we feel compelled to instruct and chasten others we are putting our faith in man to fix up problems and make us feel secure.

We have forgotten that man is but man.

"Men of sensibility look up on the night sky with awe..." ~ CS Lewis, 'Miracles'

posted April 09, 2009 09:04 AM            

quote:

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“Three things in human life are important.
The first is to be kind.
The second is to be kind.
The third is to be kind.”
Henry James

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I love this, 26taurus!!! I shall use it in my workplace!!!

quote:

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"Say what you mean but don't be mean when you say it"

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posted April 09, 2009 09:25 AM            

quote:

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I learn a great deal from you too.

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So its not just in my imagination.

quote:

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Thank you.

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You're welcome.
Thank you, too.

posted April 09, 2009 09:36 AM            

quote:

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Of course, no matter how you do it, there will always be detractors who have nothing better to do than try to bring you down for having the audacity to try to raise yourself and others up.

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posted April 09, 2009 11:33 AM            

quote:

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to push something on somebody who may not be ready for it is proving my point of ego being involved.

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I am not pushing. Nudging, perhaps.

I rarely even address individuals,
and have largely ceased to debate
for very long with someone who disagrees.

When I do debate with someone,
I try to be honest with myself about it,
and admit that it is something which
we are both investing ourselves in.
It is not just me forcing a conversation;
it takes two to drag anything out.

If I were not so objective on this matter,
I might conclude that you were forcing something.
For, even when I try not to respond to you,
you still post your thoughts in my threads,
and continue to disagree and to teach,
though I am clearly not receptive to your teaching.
I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong,
but, I am saying that it is hypocritical to do it,
since the very point you are trying to make
is that what you are doing here is wrong;
though I see you projecting it onto me.

quote:

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You may see it that way for your own purposes,
but I see it as sticking your nose where it is not yet welcome.

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You are entitled to your opinion, Ghani.
But I could say the same thing of your posts here.
I disagree with them and have stated reasonable objections,
yet you continue to "stick your nose where it is not welcome".
So be it. That is your right. You have an opinion.

If you did not think you could instruct me with it,
then you would just be writing to hear yourself talk.
But, like me, you do not simply write to hear yourself talk.
I believe you sincerely wish to discover and promote the truth.

You see, as clearly as I do, that we are all very impressionable,
and that we are constantly being inundated with influences.
And, like me, you want to offer up an alternative influence;
something that people can choose if they see value in it,
but which it is necessary to remind them of, from time to time;
just as you would appreciate them reminding you, from time to time.

quote:

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As I said before, when people are ready for the lesson,
the teacher will come... it may even be the person themselves.

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I agree. And it may even be me.
Perhaps, if they are reading my posts,
and having such a strong reaction to me,
it could be that I am that teacher,
who has appeared at the opportune moment?
If I were not, then, perhaps, they would
never run into me in the first place, or,
would merely bump into me, and carry on.
In any case, I will continue to share my views,
and anyone who finds value in them is more than welcome
to consider me a teacher; just as anyone who devalues them
is free to disagree, debate, or pass me by without a second thought.

posted April 09, 2009 11:44 AM            

Was this thread supposed to be about you? Were you the "teacher"? Was is disguised as an open thought, but really, it was about how much you are helping all of us here with your "teachings"?

Really, I am curious.

posted April 09, 2009 11:59 AM            

quote:

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I've reached the point where I know
what you are going to say before you say it,
to be honest.

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I know how you feel, to be honest.

quote:

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Not much to say in response
because I can pretty much see where it will go.

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And yet, you continue to respond.

Why? What is the point, for you?

quote:

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I'm not trying to teach you anything.

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We may have different names for it,
but you are doing nothing different
from what I have been doing.

Nothing, that is,
other than denying it, --
or maybe just calling it
by a different name,
and imagining that this
makes it a different thing.

Sounds like a bunch of
politically-correct squabbling
over insignificant semantics, to me.

Most so-called New Age philosophies,
and most so-called New Age philosophers,
have deteriorated into that sort of thing.
Its something we can all be on guard against.

quote:

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I'm speaking of a "teacher" in a very open way and responding in this thread about a person who could be anyone, not about you at all. Why would you see it that way? Do you want to see it that way?

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I apologize if I mistook you.

It did seem to me as though your posts were
intended as personal criticisms of myself, yes.

I think many people would make this mistake.
Just as certain people think I am being personal
when I share my own views about general principles.

That's a tricky one, I suppose.

quote:

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Was this thread supposed to be about you? Were you the "teacher"? Was is disguised as an open thought, but really, it was about how much you are helping all of us here with your "teachings"?

Really, I am curious.

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LOL

This thread is about all of us, in my opinion,
though I'm sure many will say its only about me,
and will do their best to make it only about me.

posted April 09, 2009 01:00 PM            

quote:

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And yet, you continue to respond.

Why? What is the point, for you?

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Because as you said before, I have an earnest interest in the truth of the matter, and I hope a little bit that you may surprise me in your response. I feel that I had a right to post a response and clarify where I was coming from in my opinion, seeing as how you misinterpreted what I was saying.

quote:

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Nothing, that is,
other than denying it, --
or maybe just calling it
by a different name,
and imagining that this
makes it a different thing.

---

Actually, no, I'm really not trying to teach you anything. I may be questing for my own answers, but certainly not trying to be a "teacher" myself to you or anyone else.

quote:

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It did seem to me as though your posts were
intended as personal criticisms of myself, yes.

I think many people would make this mistake.
Just as certain people think I am being personal
when I share my own views about general principles.

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Sorry if I made you paranoid. I don't see how "many people would make this mistake", however, unless they already were on the defensive. I don't think you are being personal, unless you personally address somebody. I was responding to the content of the thread with my own opinion, not intending to point any fingers in your direction. If anyone were saying what you were saying, I would have raised the same issues with them about a different point of view.

I honestly am not trying to be like "hey, everyone agree with me!" I often play devil's advocate just for the sake of sharing a different side of a scenario to make things more interesting. If anyone agrees with me, whatevs. If you don't, whatevs, but I have no problem with discussing it rationally and walking away with new information from the other perspective. I am not a set in stone person, there is grey area in the world.

To be clear, I think people are entitled to learning things when they are ready to or are asking to. Once again, it seems defeatist to challenge their egos to teach them when they are not 'there' yet. I think if you just have your love for them in your heart, your shoulder there for them when they are ready to ask for it, you are doing your 'duty'.

posted April 09, 2009 02:01 PM            

quote:

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I have an earnest interest in the truth of the matter,
and I hope a little bit that you may surprise me in your response.

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I have that hope, too.
I hope that I can teach.
Just as I believe that you also hope
to "surprise me with something true"
(i.e. to teach me something).

Like all the great teachers of mankind,
I believe that some things are true and good,
and that the world would be a better place
if these things were understood by more people,
and were held in the reverence I feel they deserve.

This does not mean that my own understanding
is set in stone, but, that it is well-directed.

I do not cease to progress and refine my point of view,
but neither do I wish to swerve from the most direct path.

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
~ Matthew 7:14

It's been nice trying to suprise each other.

posted April 09, 2009 02:41 PM            

The 14th Hexagram in the I Ching is called 'Great Possessing'. The text speaks of our abilities to possess great wisdom, knowledge, love and compassion. It is the 'great' within us that helps drive our purpose forward and energise potential into form.

The I Ching says that a person must first be in 'possession of the great' to achieve 'humbling'. When a person takes the next step to humble themselves, a transmutation of their awareness takes place allowing the 'Great' within them to fulfill its ultimate destiny - the unification of yin and yang energies into a composite. For it is only then that we can cut through pride and complication. Although for this to happen, there has to be some form of submission on the yang (male) side, and then it is a case of letting the (yin) woman into you.

One more thing to note - there is a text called 'Provision', Hexagram 16. The structure of this hexagram is the exact reverse of humbling. There are two effects Provision has within the I Ching:-
1/ For those who have reached a state of humbleness and wish to teach and share their learnings to those willing to listen, they may come up against resistance from others. Jesus may have been a typical example of this.
2/ Those who 'Possess the Great' and understad what humbling is in its nature, but choose to exert this influence from 'outside-in' rather than 'inside-out'. This means they seek to establish themselves in the outer world before they have establish who they are within themselves first. This reversal of the Humbling energy brings about a condition called 'Indolence' - meeting with great opposition from those present in such energies. Examples of this would be great preachers who seem to force their opinions self-righteously on others.

All in all, the text of 'Humbling' within the I ching is quite unique, describing a person who has the wisdom of world in his heart, yet uses actions rather than words to demonstrate the wisdom. The only 'force' involved is the creative force within, all outside interactions are yielding by nature but elusively powerful by consequence.

posted April 09, 2009 03:25 PM            

It is always good to share ideas and where they come from.

Thank you!

posted April 09, 2009 05:27 PM              

Betelgeuse, excellent contribution, I am fairly giggling with pitiful delight - so sad, lol

Ghani, I hear what you are saying. If I may be so bold as to paraphrase:

You are making 'a stand'. You are standing up for what you believe. You don't agree with some of what HSC is asserting and you have the strength of character to say so and to offer your own well thought out point of view.

Sharing what we have learnt or how we feel about something is different to forcing opinions on others and using emotive, convoluting hoo-hah to side step any foibles and destoy open communication.

When someone attempts an honest rationale as to why they disagree or even just to add an alternative perspective, that person is being a contributor in the discovery of truth and meaning, even if it is only a means to discern what is true for them and what sits right with the glowing embers of the love that they have for them self.

Ghani, you come across as wanting to commune with HSC. You probably value his insight and his personality and want to maintain an authentic connection with him.

posted April 09, 2009 06:37 PM            

And we should remember that it is not black and white;
that we are not either Jesus or presumptuous fanatics.
There are many, many things in between these two,
and the highest motives are often found beside the lowest,
in the same individual, and in the same situation.

Tarot Cards and I Ching readings are not either up or down,
but, rather, representations of dynamic energy conflicts,
where the positive and negative potentials are side by side,
and each expressing themselves by turns and by degrees.

Also, whether we work from within or without, we begin where we are.
And we should not wait until we are "perfect" to speak great truths.

Chryseis, very well said.

Its fine for Ghani to disagree and share her view,
and it is equally fine for me to do the same thing.

She is free to say that I am asking too much of people,
and thinking too much of myself;
I am free to say that she is asking too little of them,
and thinking too little of me.

We are both speaking truth as we know it, as best we can.

posted April 09, 2009 07:18 PM            

Although in regards to speaking great truths, the I ching follows the principle that;
Great Possessing speaks with wisdom and energy,
Humbling has no need for words of wisdom as it is this already by action.

Some examples, although I'm sure you have understood already:-

*Great Possessing speaks with vigour and complexity
*Humbling speaks simply

*Great Possessing knows he/she is wise
*Humbling knows he/she is no wiser than the unwise

*Great Possessing makes his/her presence felt strongly
*Humbling is like a soft breeze

*Great Possessing seeks to 'activate' (use force) to cultivate youthfulness of spirit
*Humbling seeks nothing as he/she knows youthfulness is seeking him/her

*Great Possessing can bring reproach
*Humbling always allows approach

posted April 09, 2009 07:25 PM              

Someone used to say to me:
"Say what you mean,
Mean what you say,
But dont say it mean."

posted April 09, 2009 07:52 PM              

Why is it so important to you to try and elevate others' choices? Do they distress you in their 'ignorance'?

I know for me when I am struggling to maintain a connection with someone I am hoping that they can prove me wrong in my opinion of them.

I think Ghani said something to that effect. It seems it is distressing when we want to stay receptive to someone and they keep assaulting our senses with blatant maltreatment of others in order to self-aggrandize.

Perhaps conversely, you are distressed when you try to stay receptive to others and they too, assault your senses. What to do!?

As you indicated, well my version is, that most things are two sides of the same coin - ambiguous in nature and the source of most frustration and conflict, I guess.

So, perhaps hard for me to admit if I were Ghani, and hard for me to admit[I would imagine] if I were you - both of you are trying to stand on the same point in space.

You seem to be saying that only those who are observant of your superiority in argument or alternatively, receptive to your tutorship are able to share that same point in space - otherwise you intend to dog them or tell them to 'talk to the hand' or tell them to leave.

Ghani, whilst trying to occupy that same point in space - will share that spot and enjoy your company if you could refrain from insulting others and twisting your arguments to gain sympathy and baffle them with clever phrasing to make out that you are only offering up some kindly assistance to others. When appealing to the audience or to confuse the 'opponent' you will say something nice and normal and indiscountable, to throw people off kilter and appeal to their guilt or their sympathy. It may disconcert the 'opponent' because they are not as underhanded, and it may confuse some but probably most will see it for what it is and it doesn't do you justice.

It brings to mind something from C.S. Lewis from his 'screwtape letters' on this website,
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/2267.htm

'Writing to his junior demon, the senior tempter gives some important advice in the art of deception: "You must therefore conceal from the patient the true end of humility. Let him think of it ... as a low opinion of his own talents and character". That ploy has certainly been widely successful!'

posted April 09, 2009 08:09 PM            

Thanks.

With all due respect to the I Ching,
it was written in a time before the internet,
before telephones, and even before letters could be
speedily passed back and forth between persons.
It is natural that the book would emphasize presence,
and the teaching that takes place through the action of presence.

Tolstoy and Emerson both wrote some beautiful words once,
about the actions of a man possessed by the spirit of wisdom,
and how he could "preach a sermon" by walking through a room,
or simply standing still, and being such as he is.

I dare to suggest that this is not possible over the internet.
Moreover, that, as there are varying degrees of wisdom,
we may not all be able to preach by standing or walking,
but, we may approach this effect with words, when actions fail us.
Yes, the enlightened man can cast his eyes towards heaven
in such a way that the mere glance inspires a reverent effect,
but this does not mean the same effect cannot be attained
through the medium of speech or type, for a lesser man.
We should all aspire to that height of sublimity
whereby our mere presence is a firm testament to God,
but we should not on that account dismiss as worthless
the efforts to which we lesser beings must and can go,
in order to, at least, indicate the truth by crude signs.

At least, that's how I understand it.

posted April 09, 2009 08:13 PM            

I disagree with your assessment,
but I hope you will respect my right
not to exhaust myself in explanations.

posted April 09, 2009 08:51 PM              

And to me it is obvious in this site that you are well loved, admired and umm - useful.

posted April 09, 2009 10:33 PM            

quote:

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it seems by your response to Betelgeuse
that you enjoy making an impact on others

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As a Scorpio, yes,
that is my primary motivation --
to penetrate, impact, and transform;
both myself and everything around me.

My Sun is on the Midheaven,
Conjunct Uranus and Venus,
and this disposes me to exert
an influence on the outer world.

I don't see anything wrong with it,
and I take comfort in the description
of the "Sun Conjunct Midheaven",
when it says: "This position generally
marks a person out for honors in the world."

With Uranus there, its no surprise, --
at least, not to me, -- that I would
be seen as a rebel and a visionary by some,
and a mere troublemaking eccentric by others.
Perhaps the truth is a little bit of both,
and a whole lot of "in-between"?

quote:

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...via the internet.
Where would you be without it!?

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I would be spared a lot of rudeness, for one thing, lol.

But, no matter where you do it, people will insult you,
if you attempt to say anything that is not run-of-the-mill.

It is often very puzzling to me,
that people see me as underhanded,
and all these things that I am not.

I think that I frequently suffer
on account of the limitations of the internet,
and benefit from being physically present with people;
my actions tend to speak much clearer than my words.

The internet makes it easier for people to
project all sorts of strange things onto me.
If you met me, you would probably be struck
by two things: my sincerity and my tenderness.

I tend to get more cerebral on the internet,
and my vocal tone is not there to convey my intentions.

quote:

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It brings to mind the disturbance
created by a leopard seal.

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Thanks.

But, what does, exactly?
My confidence? My values?
Me, standing for something?
That really disturbs you?

Why?